Dud units / monsters / summons

[vfb]

Sandman said:
The Lord Warden.

It's not that he's especially bad, but he's capital-only and can't compete with Crones or Daughters of Avalon. He's a stealthy leader, but the Mother of Avalon has the same leadership level and decent magic to boot.

I don't think a Lord Warden is a terrible choice for a prophet. It kind of fits in with the whole subversion theme for Man too (bards & stealthy priests). So just build one .

[Sandman]

vfb said:

I don't think a Lord Warden is a terrible choice for a prophet. It kind of fits in with the whole subversion theme for Man too (bards & stealthy priests). So just build one .

All that armour will give him nasty spell fatigue, until you can forge something lighter. But I suppose one is OK.

The key to using flagellants is the astral-9 bless. Twist fate effectively doubles the number of hits they can take from one to two. This gives them longer to use their offensive punch, which is decent even without a fire bless.

[Dedas]

Somehow it seems like a waste as you rarely need all that extra magic resistance on any sacred Marignon unit.

[Meglobob]

Dedas said:
Somehow it seems like a waste as you rarely need all that extra magic resistance on any sacred Marignon unit.

I usually find you can never have too much magic resistance. Especially in the end game, when a mind boggling amount of magic is flying around.

[PvK]

Er. I'm just gonna say it. I see an awful lot of people saying an awful lot of units are useless or pointless or hopeless or should be removed, and frankly, these comments are mostly showing that the posters just haven't thought of what these units are good for.

Remove the scout from Marignon because they have a (cough, much more expensive, and far less diplomatic) spy? No!

Pale Ones useless and horrible because they have one eye and therefore base attack skill of 8? Uh, fine, meanwhile they let you cheaply conquer the oceans and multiply your income, etc.

Flagellants useless? Remember that discussion about how ME Ulm is horrid because they have Morale 10... No, think again.

Ahem.

[Sombre]

I don't see people saying 'dud' units should be removed - rather that they should be improved so they aren't useless. The claim that people just haven't found what the units are good for strikes me as pretty daft. There are several units and spells in dom3 that are simply bad.

True I said I thought the flaggies were awful, but admitted I hadn't given them much testing. It's possible that when I used them they were particularly unlucky with their afflictions (crippled, lost an arm or diseased if I remember correctly). I know they were garbage when I used them, which is why I brought them up in the thread. People have disagreed with me and I have changed my position - if many people find them useful I clearly need to give them another go. Which would be the point of this whole thread.

As for the scout / spy for marignon, it's not like I'm dead set against marignon having a scout. I just see it as somewhat weird that they'd need one when they have spies. Obviously it's going to weaken the nation by a whopping 0.0000005% not being able to build those scouts, but I think I could live with that. And /much more/ expensive?

As for Pale Ones I belive the main objection was that they turn up in Agartha PD where they are useless and are unthematically slaughtered in droves. They also make poor fighters underwater or not.

I think you need to cut down on your hyperbole a little. If you disagree you can do it in a constructive non snarky non eyerolling way.

[PvK]

Sombre, I could spend all day debunking the avalanche of ill-considered exaggerated opinions in these threads about various units and nations being "duds", but I'd rather not waste that much of my time, particularly when people (I don't mean you specifically) don't even get what's spelled out. My tone may have distracted you from what I was saying, but I did include reasons you seem to have either missed or didn't appreciate about how Flagellants (even cripples), Marignon Scouts, and Pale Ones all have very good uses and reasons for being the way they are (except Pale Ones being misplaced in militia, which I agreed with at least once in its own thread).

PvK

Sombre said:
I don't see people saying 'dud' units should be removed - rather that they should be improved so they aren't useless. The claim that people just haven't found what the units are good for strikes me as pretty daft. There are several units and spells in dom3 that are simply bad.

True I said I thought the flaggies were awful, but admitted I hadn't given them much testing. It's possible that when I used them they were particularly unlucky with their afflictions (crippled, lost an arm or diseased if I remember correctly). I know they were garbage when I used them, which is why I brought them up in the thread. People have disagreed with me and I have changed my position - if many people find them useful I clearly need to give them another go. Which would be the point of this whole thread.

As for the scout / spy for marignon, it's not like I'm dead set against marignon having a scout. I just see it as somewhat weird that they'd need one when they have spies. Obviously it's going to weaken the nation by a whopping 0.0000005% not being able to build those scouts, but I think I could live with that. And /much more/ expensive?

As for Pale Ones I belive the main objection was that they turn up in Agartha PD where they are useless and are unthematically slaughtered in droves. They also make poor fighters underwater or not.

I think you need to cut down on your hyperbole a little. If you disagree you can do it in a constructive non snarky non eyerolling way.

[Sombre]

I don't see that astral 9 is worth it. I mean their offensive power isn't really that good, not worth a level 9 bless to protect anyway. Remember that a good number of them are crippled and have messed up strength etc.

[Dedas]

To me fire and maybe air (for airshield) seems to be the obvious choices for blesses. But maybe death can do some good too as they probably are many and have a lot of attacks that will hit (flails) very often. Afflictions can cripple even the best units, and the best thing is that their owner still has to pay their upkeep.

[HoneyBadger]

Here's another one, the EA Atlantis Basalt Guard. Powerful unit, but because it doesn't wear a helmet, it can't get the full use of an earth-bless, it's got ridiculous resource-cost, it's capital only, and doesn't even get a patrol-bonus, despite-in the description-being the "ultimate guards".

Again, like the Niefel footsoldier, neat unit in theory, in practice-not much worth using at all.