Conceptual Balance (Discussion)

[Xietor]

I do not think MA Man is weak, but if you look at their troops they can get at a castle far from their capital, it is not good either.

Man is average imho. But I think they get too big a penalty on troops away from their capital. Man IS weak when compared to Vanaheim and Arcos MA, and both of those nations pretty much get their full compliment of troops in all castles.

And of course Arcos. can tp their astrologists around the map, so even their mage that is capital only is not limited on a large map.

In short, Man's infantry sucks, and warden's are capital only. I do not think man is powerful enough to make them pay a premium for a very average infantry unit even if he is called elite.

And while you cannot only compare similar units among the different races, if the races you are comparing are close in power, than you can compare.

Man does get the longbow men, and air magic. Longbows are good, but many races have as good or better missile troops. And missile troops are plentiful to buy in dom III from indies. maybe not as good, but serviceable.

man gets knights and koas, but neither is sacred.

In the scheme of things, I would adjust man's so-called elite infantry upwards, as they did, and at least consider allowing the Daughters of Avalon and KOA's to be recruited at all castles.

Or conversely, limit vans and elephants of arcos and vanaheim to capital only. Though arcos could easily gate them, at least they would have to make that small effort. But the capital only penalty really does not effect a strong astral race like arcos., so my preference would be to relax the penalty on other races, rather than try and limit the astral races and Vanaheim.

And lest we lose sight, having fun is the key point. Why not try to let people use the troops they like best as often as they want to the extent it does not really unbalance the game. And since many games are played on small maps where the capital only penalty is marginal, i do not see the game balance being affected drastically.

Yes i realize that part of the penalty is to limit their production, more castles means more can be made per turn.

But I think any unbalancing is more pronounced with mages and sacred troops, than a costly nonsacred troop like the KOA, or the lord guardian and guardians of ulm. I see nothing unbalancing about allowing these nonsacred, non mages, being made at all castles.

[Dedas]

But Lord Guardians are only trained in the Keep of Ulm as they as they are the elite of the elite in Ulm. So it says in the description at least. You can change that of course but I would find it rather unthematic that you can recruit elite "lords" in every castle.

[Teraswaerto]

Xietor said:
Man does get the longbow men, and air magic. Longbows are good, but many races have as good or better missile troops.

What are better than longbows at every castle?

[Shovah32]

And when you add wind guide(and possibly flaming arrows from a pretender/indies/summons) those longbows become more than good.

[Dedas]

I hate longbows! Being on the receiving end that is.

Even with tower shield troops you lose men with every volley when the arrows are wind guided and fire enchanted (as Shovah wrote). The only relief is that those longbowmen don't have a lot of armor and most new players tend to ignore protecting them from counter archery/"crossbowery" and fliers. Oh, and you can always cast storm/rain/mist (if you're lucky Man will do it for you), that will keep you somewhat alive.

[Teraswaerto]

If you get blasted by Man's air mages you might not think that storm is so great. They also can buff their melee troops with a lot of different Nature spells.

[Dedas]

Yes I know, but at least you get rid of those tiering longbows. I prefer to be blasted by sorcery over shot by an arrow any day.

Just kidding of course.

[Xietor]

MA races with longbows(off the top of my head)
Pangaea, Shin. Bandar Log, Man.

Better than longbows(at times)

Tien Chi has the composite bows, Maragon crossbows, Ulm arbalests, and ap bows are not commonly found among indies. Ulm's arbalest are also better infantry than many so called infantry.

And later in game, arrow fend can neutralize missile troops to a large degree, so you cannot always rely on them.

My only point is, not to argue with anyone, is that some races likely could use some adjusting with their capital only troops.

As for thematics , just change the description of Ulm's keep to say "In Ulm's Keep, the heart of Ulm, the FIRST Lord Guardians and Guardians were trained."

For Man, "The Knights of Avalon, loyal to the Mother of Avalon, fight alongside her." As you know, the Mother of Avalon can be recruited at all castles, so it is no less thematic to allow the KOA to be recruited all over either.