Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)

[MaxWilson]

NTJedi said:
Based on how powerful Umbrals are on the battlefield their gem cost should be at least 8 death gems each. They are one of the best units for casting gift of reason.

Maybe so, but Gift of Reason will dominate the cost. Is a GoR'ed Umbral that much superior to a Black Servant? It's several times more expensive.

I venture no opinion on whether normal Umbrals are underpriced. Not enough experience with 'em, although this thread is inspiring me to try them out.

-Max

[Shovah32]

The umbral is far superior to a black sevant.

Umbral:
68 Health
22 Strength
12 Attack
12 Defence
15 Magic Resistance
20 Morale
14/3 Movement
40 Normal Leadership
Amphibious

Black Servant:
18 Health
13 Strength
11 Attack
11 Defence
10 Magic Resistance
17 Morale
12/3 Movement
No Leadership

Both are undead(umbrals MR alone makes it superior due to this), both have 100% cold and poison resisance, both have stealth+0 and are ethereal.

So yes, imho Umbrals are that much superior to black servants.

[Ygorl]

For their cost, the research required to summon them, and the single-nation limitation, they'd better be superior to black servants! Umbrals are nice, no doubt, but I've never seen them make or break a game. Keep in mind that you only get one per casting, so to amass a horde you need a lot of mage time (and at least in the early age you either need expensive mages or 4x that many cheap mages). While they're powerful, and a great value if you just look at gem cost, I don't think they remotely overpower the nation. I don't even think they dramatically out-cool other things Agartha can do - for the same gem cost, I can get five magma children, which aren't too shabby on their own, or a big earth elemental that can trample all over unfriendly chaff-mobs. The only cheap EA Agarthan mages that don't have a useful summon, actually, are the WE guys. I guess they can research or something.
If you restrict your attention to things you can summon with death gems, even, I don't think Umbrals are that obvious a choice. Say you've got five Oracles of the Dead and a bunch of death gems. You could summon a pile of Longdead Horsemen and with the rest of the oracles do a bunch of research or forge some things or preach a lot or lead some armies, or else for the same gem cost summon five Umbrals and do nothing else. It's not clear to me that the second choice is always or even usually better.

[MaxWilson]

Ygorl said:
If you restrict your attention to things you can summon with death gems, even, I don't think Umbrals are that obvious a choice. Say you've got five Oracles of the Dead and a bunch of death gems. You could summon a pile of Longdead Horsemen and with the rest of the oracles do a bunch of research or forge some things or preach a lot or lead some armies, or else for the same gem cost summon five Umbrals and do nothing else. It's not clear to me that the second choice is always or even usually better.

While Oracles will generally have something better to do with their time, they're capital-only. 25% of Earth Readers will be E1D1 and can summon umbrals, which means you can set up an umbral factory without interrupting your Oracles. I don't know if that affects your argument.

-Max

[mivayan]

MaxWilson said:
While Oracles will generally have something better to do with their time, they're capital-only. 25% of Earth Readers will be E1D1 and can summon umbrals, which means you can set up an umbral factory without interrupting your Oracles. I don't know if that affects your argument.

-Max

Oracles are the only way (except perhaps summoning spectres via pretender-made booster items) to get umbrals in MA...

so EA balance is more interesting. Cost 2 or 8 is meaningless when discussing Gift of reason, and presumably items too.

[Shovah32]

I probably wouldnt GoR them(well maybe in single player) but i thought i should point out how superior they are to the black servants.

[danm]

GoR'd Umbrals can, with some reasonably easy to forge equipment, become pretty decent low-cost SCs. I'm sure there are better chassis for the end-game, but probably not many that can compete in terms of gem cost and low research levels required.

Even so, I really don't think they qualify as overpowered, Particularly in the context of the nation that can summon them. They are definately GOOD. They didn't NEED amphibious, though thematically, it makes sense... (why would the ghosts of ancient pale ones suddenly forget how to breathe water?)

As mentioned by previous posters, they are not all that easy to mass, and are not a rush threat. By the time an agarthan player is able to produce them in any quantity, others should be able to come up with an answer.

Additionally, I always find death gems in very short supply in EA and MA. Skull Staves and Skull mentors eat a LOT of gems. Mages are expensive (even the "cheap" ones), and with agarthas "quirky" national troops, it can be difficult to expand quickly.

My feeling is, that if an agartha player has gotten to the point where he can manage to produce Umbrals in any significant quantity, then gosh durn it he DESERVES those yummy hunks of etherial beefcake.

I don't have a lot of MP experience, so there may well be ways to exploit umbrals such that there is no reasonable counter, but I've not stumbled on it yet, and not for lack of trying.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, I buy that. A GoR'ed Umbral looks slightly weaker than a Wraith Lord (a bit higher ST, stealthy, life drain attack vs. Soul Vortex casting, Wraith Lord has 22 Prot without needing forged armor, Wraith Lord is immortal) but is available at a lower research level (and doesn't need Alt-6 to cast Soul Vortex). Increasing the death gem cost for Umbrals won't affect this one way or the other, because the nature gem cost dominates.

Still, I think if I was Gift-of-Reasoning undead creatures I'd rather have a Tartarian. Umbrals look more like something I'd throw Marble Warriors on and use as footsoldiers, unless I really wanted a stealthy commander. Disclaimer: I'm not an MP player so I may be missing some tricks.

-Max