Shoulder Launched SAM's

[loktarr]

Don't forget to compare with other OOB missiles:

the impressive:
UK's Starstreak: 3x0,9kg warhead , (6/12/12)

and the stinger-like:
FR's Mistral: 3kg (5/3/3)

and add the SP-SAM:
UK: Rapier SAM: (6/10/10)

EU: Roland: (8/4/4)

Fr: Crotale: (8/14/14)

(US: linebakers with Stinger
Germany: ozelot with Stinger)

Something interresting:

The original Rapier FSB1 was deployed during the Falklands War but saw very poor performance against low-flying aircraft flying away from the launcher. Fourteen kills were claimed but later reports reveal that just two aircraft were shot down in the whole war. The Falklands proved the general inability of short range missile systems (no matter how sophisticated) to defend anywhere but their own position unless combined with a longer range air defense.

I tried in-game: 5 rapier against 8 last-generation (EW=8) aircrafts (SEAD+strike): 5 aircraft down, no rapier destroyed. It's worse for most of the SP-SAMs because rapier is one of the worst.

[PlasmaKrab]

Talking about lethality ratings, short-range SP SAMs are quite another matter than NANPADS, since several of them use hybrid Frag-HEAT warheads (Roland, Rb.70) or even contact APHE (HE with delay fuse, see the ominous Starstreak or the Rapier IIRC). These ones are harder to model, since they should get a nearly-ATGM-like HE penetration, which would be no end of overkill against aircrafts that rarely get more than 3 points of armor. I think the game allows for such missiles to get a HEAT penetration value and HEAT ammo for use against ground armor targets. That's supposed to be used only in those dual-purpose missile systems that have a real ground targetting ability, like the ADATS.

[MarkSheppard]

The Falklands proved the general inability of short range missile systems (no matter how sophisticated) to defend anywhere but their own position unless combined with a longer range air defense.

SHORADs and their ilk, MANPADs aren't really meant to be uber defense systems. Their small size and range limits them to defending their location; they're supposed to be actually PORTABLE, compared to Patriot, and short range is not a handicap when every Motorized Rifle Platoon or so has a Igla or whatever ready to shoot off at any targets of opportunity; making flying low level extremely hazardous; forcing aircraft up higher into the engagement envelope of heavy SAMs like Patriot.

[Suhiir]

Good data and info folks !

And while I agree in-game a hit, any hit, will keep an aircraft from returning for another pass (assuming it has any ordnance left after the first and is coded to do so) the game engine apparently can't abort an attack run so unless an aircraft is actually shot down any damage done to them is pretty much irrelevant.

Probably a case of "not much can be done due to limitations in the game engine" but unless you've got a Russian style TO where every platoon has a MANPAD it does make them pretty much of a waste of points (and they tend to be very expensive units).

I'll try your suggested values PlasmaKrab, it surely can't hurt *chuckles*

As far as your data from A-Stan Mark . . . looks like the missiles may be right on the money, 1 in 80 that actually hit seems to be about the kill ratio I've noticed *laughs*

[Suhiir]

Not to try to resurrect a dead horse but I got to thinking . . .

We have 40mm AA Guns in most OOB's and they seem to work pretty well.

OOB = Many --- 40mm Bofors Gun or 40mm M1 AAG
Warhead Size = 3
HE Penetration = 1
HE Kill = 13
AP Penetration = 7

OOB = Many --- 40mm L70 AAG
Warhead Size = 3
HE Penetration = 1
HE Kill = 19
AP Penetration = 9

OOB = USA --- 40mm Bofors L60 (Wpn Class 11)
Warhead Size = 3
HE Penetration = 6
HE Kill = 13
AP Penetration = 0

40mm
Wt. of projectile: HE - 1.985 lbs, AP - 1.960 lbs

Bursting Charge
(modern day)
0.20 lbs. (0.092 kg) Hexotonal

USA (World War II)
HE Mark 1 - 0.148 lbs. (0.067 kg) Cast TNT
HE Mark 2 - 0.150 lbs. (0.068 kg) Cast TNT

I can't think of any reason a MANPAD would be any less effective then a 40mm round once it actually hits, and since most have about 8x the bursting charge one might think they'd be more effective.

[PlasmaKrab]

Hmm, Suhiir, just thinking about this: don't use the AA guns for HE kill comparisons, most of them are considered burst-firing, i.e. one shot includes several rounds.
As far as I'm concerned, I've used the hand grenade basis for weight-related HE ratings, mixing in some HEK and HEP tweaks on the basis of prox-detonation issues and prefragmented/continuous-rod dedicated warheads.

[Suhiir]

Good point Plasma. On the other hand AA guns aren't going up your tailpipe or probably bursting as close to the aircraft as a missile would.
For sheer damage I'd agree a hand grenade is probably about right . . . question is tho . . . is that a good comparison to the effects of an explosion near a fast moving relatively fragile aircraft?

[mr_clark]

It should be.
If you take into account that for example the newer russian AA guns fire more then 16 rounds per barrel and second you can imagine the number of hits spread over the aircraft... On the other hand a singel MANPADs Fragementation warhead will punch a number of "small" holes in a rather small area.