MA Agartha, or Yet another thread fishing for tips

[atul]

Whoops, my bad, I confused Readers with Crafters. I've mostly meant to say Crafters (the EEWFH variety).

Hm, anyway, I think I disagree with you regarding the relative strengths between Readers and Crafters. And I believe much of that stems from your pretender design giving Agartha poor scales. I'm thinking, what good does the Ghost King do during the first year, bar researching? You can't actually field him that early, especially with the astral and death magic only. With dormant you'd get 150 points or nearly 4 positive scale steps up. With neutral growth the Crafters aren't dying that soon, and they're superior battlefield support. Especially since they don't require anything forged.

Hm, regarding pretender design for Agartha I'm still undecided. The one Alex gave earlier, awakened immortal Oracle is about the only one I'd dare to field really early if any points are put to magic paths. The Oracle is a find, since not many immortals have all the slots and near hundred base HP. On the other hand, you could benefit to have a sitesearcher/booster forget in paths that are weak, namely fire/water/death. With single picks it's hard to get good gem income in fire or water, the death sitesearching spell requires luckily only one pick of death.

On the forging front, dont forget Fire and Frost Brands which are great given your commander thugs' low attack scores. Also Crafters forge Charcoal Shields easily.

And, two similar items with bonuses don't stack. So you can't wield two Dwarven Hammers to any extra effect.

Hm. lots of things I agree with, only sticking to some I don't because of the lack of time and the impressive amount of stuff you've put down.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

I'm rather interested to hear what you have to say about Readers and Crafters. I started writing this guide to figure out the strengths and weaknesses, not because I was any good. I hadn't tried Agartha until a week ago, and if I make a whole new thread on the subject, I have no objections to borrowing someone else's expertise, if freely given.

Yeah... I knew the Ghost King was a poor choice. But that doesn't mean I didn't want to try. (I want to avoid obvious choices such as Risen Oracle, just because I'm contrary)

I was about to go into the pretender choice i picked... but before I go into any great detail about my master plans (Master as in Southparks' Underpants Gnomes
I've got step one (steal underpants) figured out, and step 3 (profit). But between there....

So... if you're in the Jaguar game, promise not to read any further, m'kay? Honor system here.

So my pretender for this game (already sent in to keep Sunday from disappearing into the abyss of pretender design and nothing else, so no chance of tweaking) is an awake Drakaina named Scylla, Patron of the Rich, Symbol of Unchallenged Victory. Scylla, is of course, a reference to Greek myth, the monster with six heads, and the dogs sprouting from her. I might have tried other things, too, but I would have been experimenting forever. So, while she's not going to change for now, I am interested in what you would have done differently with her, or suggest I do with what I've got.

She has two fire, three water, three death, and five dominion. Her scales are one order, one sloth, one turmoil, and three magic. Using some math I'll leave out for now, I can get all the way to construction four by fall. I've even done it in one practice game. So this is a research strong empire. The question of balance I'm trying to skew by sending Scylla along with my armies. She's not quite tough enough to take on the independents by herself, but once I hit const. four, she could take a water province by herself.

So while I can hit construction four by my first fall/early winter, I'm not sure that's the best way to spend my research. While I need to expand (and sloth hurts when I can only get resources from two provinces), hopefully my high research allows me to try something out. Do I let some of my mages do other things? I can pinch pennies by hiring earth readers instead of golem crafters, but given my order and sloth, I usually have enough money even to buy mercenaries. Up until I want to buy a fortress. I'm going to have to take some care in budgeting. But not as much with my previous turmoil-1, sloth-1, heat-1, death-1 pick. Rather than a significant penalty, I've got a 5% money bonus.

In the long run (dwarven hammer, construction 6), Scylla is capable of directly or indirectly getting me Demilichs, King of Banefire, King of Deeper Earth, Kokythiads, and the Water Queen. Still doesn't do much for my magic diversity, but does give me quite a bit more range in my chosen fields. That's certainly end-game though, since I'd need the gems for all that junk.

If I make it that far, I've got access to Darkness - though I'm not aiming for utterdark, as my pretender is neither blind, undead or able to see in the dark. Burden of Time would be suicidal with my mages, so thats out.

So while I have ideas about my endgame, I need to work on something a bit earlier than that or just unspecific expand, grow, conquer. Any five-point plans? I'll be thinking on what I'll be aiming for most of today, but I'm open to suggestions.

And I finally found that list of sites. In edi's sig. Which search engine doesn't include. Now, I just have to figure out the 20 sheets. But anyways, ignore my earlier question about sites. I found a rather nice one my last game, that gave me +1 gems all Except Death, Astral. And I found it with an Earth Reader, of all things.

I've done a custom sort on the sites list, tweaked the layout a bit. And its an interesting read, for sure. For instance, Water has only the one Level Four site, but its not unique, but rare, so I can get more than one, and it offers five water gems. And it can only be found on land!

Also, there's no reason to search under water with a priest of level two or above. The only underwater holy site requires H1.All the more intensive sites are above ground.

As for holying a l3 priest, to get a l4 prophet... There are two L4 holy sites. The Temple of Time and The Ward. No need to search for the Ward- it'll announce itself by smiting the undead. With its unrest reduction though, it'd make a nice place to hunt for blood or overtax. The Temple of Time... I'm uncertain about that one right now. But considering I don't need more priests, its safe not to waste a prophet searching for it. Unless it has some benefit I'm overlooking. The level three sites are nice enough , but not enough to go looking for. If I happen to have a way-to-expensive oracle searching for high-level earth sites, though...

If the unrest reduction is active all the time, you can find most of the sites by a little judicious taxation. If not... Also, earth death and fire all offer level one const bonus sites.

Theres all sorts of tidbits here... but I'd lose track of my purpose if I went on about it.

[atul]

Hm, I don't think anyone is claiming to be too expert to be wrong here, I at least err more than enough. If I come blunt it's just that English is not my native language (the usual disclaimer), so apologies for that.

Anyway, I think you've noticed too that about the only problem with using your pretender as a lone combatant is her low protection - no body slot nor earth magic. Should you manage to up her protection somehow (and get some regeneration) she's a melee monster, with fire shield, breath of winter and personal quickness. Barring that, site search, research, forging and summons then, with an assisting role in battles in a pinch. Note that if you go Evocation tree, she gets all the acid spells which are AP and armour-destructing. Very yummy.

As I said, Agartha gets nice battlefield spells early with a variation necessary for changing opponents. Human troops get stuck with Earth Meld (Alt2), high protection can be negated with Rust Mist (Evo2 if you get it to work) and Magma Bolts kill even giants (Evo3). I'd hope those would get you through early-game rush should you start near some stupid bless-nation. Note that aforementioned things rely on you bringing Golem Crafters into fray. Earth Power and Stoneskin may help with their survivability. Also, don't forget the sitesearching spells from Thau2 and Conj2.

I'm not an expert with construction magic, but I'd think if you can get a good gem income Const4 could be handy with your Ancient Lords (Frost Brand, Charcoal Shield, Elemental armor give 100% prot against two elements and fire and cold elemental damage irrespective of attack skill, just add reinvigoration). ...damn, I really need to switch to Construction in my MP game...

I think much depends on where you're heading and who is against you. Earth Meld is bound to be totally useless against Jotuns but a lifesaver against a Vanir rush. I can't tell what's the truth, just my version of it.

And what comes to holy sites, and sitesearching in general, I wouldn't stress too much of finding everything. Just use your pretender to search initially, then forge a couple of fire/water boosters to your Crafters and have them cast sitesearching spells on all your provinces.

[atul]

And, in case you didn't notice, I started this whole thread because I had no clue how to play MA Agartha and had been assigned them in Perpetuality.

Regarding the differences between Earth Readers and Golem Crafters, I think ERs come handy when you're in mid-game when the law of averages comes into play (you're more dependant on cost of upkeep and RP per gold than abilities of a single mage). That in mind, I've at least first recruited solely GCs as they're superior at least during the first year of their recruitment. Maybe when there are three castles up or so and all your battlemage/sitesearch/forger/summoner functions are filled ERs become cost effective. And, of course, during the turns when you haven't got enough money for 200 gold mage (going to be rare).

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

You're not coming off as blunt. Rather, I'm looking for more criticism. Sensible experience. And even wild, unfounded speculation. Anything that makes me look at my assumptions, or sparks some stupid-wild germ of an idea for me to look into. Anything, really, even an Agarthan cookie recipe. I'm fumbling in the dark, here (Pun intended).

A bit of advice- don't eat Agarthan cookies if they're called "Rocky Road". The Golem bits have a nasty tendency to attack the eater.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Well... recruiting solely Golem Crafters with Scylla allows me to reach 4th level research by fall first year.

But, recruiting earth readers early on does allow for two advantages. That 110 gold you're saving can help you hire mercenaries, and get a second fortress up quite a bit earlier.

On that matter, I heard somewhere that Cave City and Forts are under the effect of Darkness? Is this true?

Fortress Review:
Capital: Cave City
Default: Fortified City
Mountain: Cave Fort
Swamp: Swamp Fort
Forest: Forest Fortress
Tower weapons: 6x sling

Also worth noting is that with a pair of boots, your Oracles of the Ancients can cast Wizard's Tower for 50 gems- but only at Alt 8.

Your capital is pretty well defended, but rather low on supplies. If you expect a siege, Pale One Soldiers are not a bad choice, as they don't consume supplies. Your admin is a measly 30, which means that it will always be difficult to mass Ancient Ones. Unless you're surrounded by a lot of forests/mountains.

Your Default Fortress of a Fortified City is exceptional. It's defense isn't ideal, but it is well supplied in case of sieges, and most importantly, it has 50% admin. Which means, build one of these in a strategic position to pump out the majority of your national troops. On second thought, your nationals aren't that special- a good independent selection works as well. When you build one of these, consider leaving out a temple and lab to save money.

As to Mountain provinces the Cave Fort is there.It's admin and supply are measly, but its high defense means Pale One Soldiers can hold it for quite a long time against a larger force. Unfortunately, on random maps you will only see border provinces, at least at v. 3.08. It's on the expensive side though. I would NOT recommend making this your first fort. However... there are certain circumstances where its value jumps dramatically. A iron Mine, for instance. Or the Vaults Beneath (150 resources). Or some indies, or special site recruits.

Your Swamp Fort is abysmal- but cheap at 800 and 3 turns. It has absolutely 0 admin value. However, its not a bad place to put a library and temple, pumping out mages. If you want to double up your research early (sacred mages, magic scale 3), this is an option, albeit one that hamstrings troop production and vulnerable to attack. On the plus side, you could put one up next to a better fort, such as your capital, and it will hardly affect production.

Your Forest Fortress is not a bad choice. It's hardly ideal, but considering forests are high in resources and it goes up in four turns and 1000 gold, this is a decent production choice. If you haven't grabbed all the provinces in the area, its superior to a fortified city.

Is there anything special about the Wizard's Tower, or is it simply a magically created fort? Regardless, it does have nice admin.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

National Summons. General Summons will come later.

While its not heavily advertised, your golems get +10% hitpoints per level of dominion. I don't know if the opposite is true in hostile dominion.

Agartha's national summons are an important part of your strategy. With a base income of 5 earth gems, and plenty of mages capable of remote site searching with Gnome Lore, you can easily form the core of your army around your golems.

If you've taken sloth and high magic, then aim to include these in your armies by the start of the second year, or earlier. If you've taken productivity, you can go a bit further with your mundane national troops.

Most of your national golems are sacred. With every mage being a priest, its easy to bless the 5 or 20 you can send out with your Earth Readers and Golem Crafters, respectively. For larger numbers, your Oracle of the Ancients is a level three priest for area blesses. Earth bless, ironically, is useless (for these, but not the mages), and don't be tempted by the nature bless either. Since they're lifeless, 50 morale, regen and beserk is useless. Since they have no armor, all natural protection, they have no encumberance and no armor to get +4.

Also worth noting is patrol bonuses handy for paying for even more Golem Crafters. They need to be repaired in labs, and squash undead statistically and also because there's little point in lifedraining or fear. Lifeless offers several nice benefits. The manual isn't entirely up to date with regards to these, you'll have to take a peek to see all the details. They're also magical beings. Gotta keep your mages alive. Finally, many have map moves of three, but your mages 1. Keep a sharp eye out for any independent mages with decent magic leadership and high map moves, and consider twiceborn-ing an Oracle when the opportunity presents itself. If the Marble Oracle has leadership thats nice- but I don't know yet.

Are they affected by Darkness?
Acronyms
SAR - Standard Aggregate Research
EAR# - Estimated Available Research #
EAR operates under the assumption that each turn your recruit a mage of research ability # and dedicate them to research. Plenty of things can affect this, including early secondary forts, indies... It will be followed by a time.

Standard Golem Crafter RP 6. Magic Scale 3- 8.
Standard Earth Reader RP 3. Magic Scale 3 - 5.

Basic Formula SARx2/RP = t^2 + t
Estimate is sqrt(SARx2/RP). Since it's an estimate, I'm not to worried about rounding up or down. Or whether it starts on turn 1 or two. This is just to give an idea of how quickly one might get to a dedicated research goal.

Attentive Statues - Enchant 3 E2, 8 Gems, SAR 200
EAR3 ~ 11. EAR5 ~ 9 EAR6 ~ 8. EAR8 ~ 7

Compared to your later summons, they don't seem to impressive. However, they are well worth summoning. Consider the typical early expansion army- 10 infantry flanked by two squads of light infantry, ten each. This is sufficent to take down a few indies without many casulties. Now, consider replacing the core of ten infantry with ten Attentive Statues. They lack shields, but at 22 protection, they needn't worry about typical arrows. Even crossbows have to deal with 11 protection minimum, and they're 10 damage strength NOT added. These units are by no means immune to missile fire, but they do nicely. On top of that, all their stats are enough to squash your typical human heavy infantry, and at 50 morale, they'll never break- unless your mage gets squashed. They don't repair outside of a lab though, you'll have to keep an eye on that. Especially worth mentioning is their defense of 14- particularly higher than your later summons. And no encumbrance.

And in funding pinch, they have a patrol bonus, just send them to a farmland, and overtax those stupid abovegrounders.

Enliven Sentinels - Enchant 4 E2, 4 Gems, SAR 360
EAR3 ~ 15 EAR5 ~ 12 EAR6 ~ 11 EAR8 ~ 9.

Sentinels seem more attractive than Attentive Staues. On a one on one basis, they certainly have more hitpoints and strength for the gems, not to mention sacred. On the downside, they have five less defense. Sometimes that means they'll need more repairs at your neighborhood lab. On top of the greater strength, the Granite Sword has been replaced with a Granite Glaive capable of 7 damage, instead of 4, and length 4 causing some possible repels.

In all, they are better than Attentive Statues, but I wouldn't wait for them unless expansion was going very well. If my expansion was going swimmingly, then I'd save my gems for these. In other words, if I went with a high productivity bonus I'd save oup for Sentinels.

Enliven Granite Guard - Enchant 5 E3, 12 Gems, SAR 520
EAR3 ~ 19 EAR5 ~ 15 EAR6 ~ 13 EAR8 ~ 12.

Triple the gem cost, triple the hitpoints, and 22 strength. Throw in a 100% health bonus from a dom10 golem cult and you get 150 astonishing hitpoints. They're mean on the offense, capable of giving Giants a good show (though their 22 prot is matched by 20 strength+weapons). In friendly territory, they'll easily give those giants a good spanking and send them running home to their mommies. If you can afford them.

Enliven Marble Oracle
Haven't tried it yet. Can it lead troops? Any equipment slots? Prophet capable? Anybody have the juicy gossip on el Oracle?

Awaken Cavern Wight - No experience using it yet. What have you got to say?
Chill 3, undead. Available the same time as a a regular Wight, but costs 3 gems instead of five. Loses the bane blade in place of a more mundane glaive. Probably a little inferior, but at 60% cost, who am I to complain.

Summon Umbral - No experience using it yet. What can you say about it?

Stealth, Life Drain, Ethereal, undead. Give a Black Servant a Rod of the Leper King and you've got a raiding force. A lot meaner than shades.

Any juicy gossip on these units?

While your golems are formidable, they don't have any special crowd control properties. Thats why I suggest using them as the core of your force, flanked by mundanes. After all, your mages have much more mundane leadership than magical.

[Shovah32]

Umbra;s are great and extremely powerful, if you have death gems you should summon some.
Tomb oracles are mindless, lifeless magic beings. They are level 2 priests and have full slots. They have 85 health, 22 protection(thats before you put armour on them so you can give them things like robes of shadows), 22 strength, 12 attack and 10 defence. The fact that they are mindless along with their 15 MR makes them pretty magic resistant but being magic beings leaves them slightly vunerable.