use of bane lords

[llamabeast]

I thought Iron Will was Ulm only?

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

"I thought Iron Will was Ulm only?"
Nope, thats "Tempering the Will", which affects the entire battlefield (friendlies only). Iron Will affects only one square or one unit, I'm not sure which.

"my mages and top generals (Hangatuns or something) come with air, death, earth and some blood (although i am not using it)"

By any chance are you referring to a Hangadrott?
Are you possibly playing Hellheim, not Vanheim?
Or is it a Vanadrott? Vanheim has the dwarven Smiths, but not much death. Hellheim has the Svartalf (dark dwarf) and sacred flyer Dis. Vanheim has no flyers, but does have an immortal.

[parcelt]

yes - i am sorry, definitely playing Hellheim and my generals are called Hangadrotts. My mages are the great Svartalfs (too bad they seem to be capital only).

With respect to avoiding my bane lords being targeted with magic all the time, how about having a lot of Shades accompany them? (i am swimming in death gems).

I thought the Sword of Swiftness was a good idea against hordes of low-level enemies. Why do people seem to prefer Frostbrand / firesword?

[Meglobob]

parcelt said:
yes - i am sorry, definitely playing Hellheim and my generals are called Hangadrotts. My mages are the great Svartalfs (too bad they seem to be capital only).

No, its very good Svartalfs are capital only. It is too unbalancing otherwise.

parcelt said:With respect to avoiding my bane lords being targeted with magic all the time, how about having a lot of Shades accompany them? (i am swimming in death gems).

Bodyguards are good, I believe bodyguards with more hps or a larger size will be targeted instead of your bane lord.

parcelt said:I thought the Sword of Swiftness was a good idea against hordes of low-level enemies. Why do people seem to prefer Frostbrand / firesword?

They have a AOE instead of just targeting 1 opponent. Try it and see the difference. Shadow brand is good as well.

[Morkilus]

Here's what I use for my raiding Bane Lords playing as Helheim:

Fire Brand; it's all about the AoE attacks. (I like Shadow Brand, but my death gems are precious).
Charcoal Shield; there's nothing that does the job more efficiently.
Horror Helm; sometimes you just have to get them to take off. Works best against indies, however.
Flying Boots; More for the strategic move than for battles. Sometimes you can hold out back and wait, then attack rear to catch the random commanders alone. Flexibility and speed are vital, since you can't have a stealthy Bane Lord.
Lucky Amulet; I think we've covered this one. Bane Lords have such high protection naturally that it takes a lucky roll to do any damage. Making even the lucky hits miss half the time will do wonders for their survivability.
Cat Charm/Anti-Magic Amulet; it depends on your enemy and if you've found good indie mages to forge these. The Cat Charm is cheap enough to throw on for a defense bonus, but the AMA might be better if you're facing priests.
I've found that I'm unsatisfied with most of the cheaper armor; you're better off leaving his plate alone.

Finally, choose your battles carefully. You generally want to fight human-strength enemies that can't do much damage and have a tendency to rout. The larger enemies usually have enough strength to punch through one of the Bane Lord's greatest strength: his default armor. The 0 encumbrance is nice, as well - no need for reinvigoration.

[Lazy_Perfectionist]

Sword of Swiftness attacks twice, but only against one target. Fire Brand and Frost Brand have a small (which is what exactly?) area attack. Against size 2 humanoids, you're hitting at least three enemies with the side affect, in addition to the weapon itself. I haven't yet used them myself, so I can't say whether its worth it, but that's roughly the reason why they prefer that.

I would not go with Shades, they don't last too long with banishment going around (area attack), but they do have the decent MR. If you have the ability to summon them in quantity, Ghosts help trim the chaff with their fear, 20 hp, and 15 MR. Alternatively, a Behemoth will trample many units underfoot, and absorb a lot of spells at 104 hitpoints- though they'll go down, for sure. If you can cast darkness, it'll hinder non-dead, non-darkvision units. Most importantly, it cuts the precision the spellcasters will use- unless they've summoned undead spellcasters - easily done with EA Ctis. Banishment may be AOE, but has a precision of 0. If you're cutting precision to a quarter of its original value (Ctis - 10), it'll have trouble hitting a thing.
10/4 = 2.5. 2.5/2-2 - barring experience boni, it'll start deviating before it gets past their nose.

At ten spaces, deviation is equal to about 5 squares. Still within AOE 4, easily.

At twenty spaces, max deviation is 10 squares.

Paralyze has 100 precision, unfortunately. And I'm not certain where spell precision falls in the formula, before or after darkness. But assume the worst, it'll hit.

[HoneyBadger]

Don't forget rime hauberk (mass cold effect) or ribcage (soul vortex)

[Morkilus]

Lazy_Perfectionist said:Alternatively, a Behemoth will trample many units underfoot, and absorb a lot of spells at 104 hitpoints- though they'll go down, for sure.

This might be a good idea - mages tend to target big units with the unit-specific spells. I usually use Bane Lords as raiders, though.

[parcelt]

thanks for all the tips! there seem to be quite a few interesting alternatives to try out, my forgers are going to be busy!

Some more questions:
- i went through great pains to get my bane lords those cloaks that make them ethereal - Robe of Shadows I think. How good is being ethereal really? I think the description says 'very difficult to hit with non-magical weapons'. Also compared to some of the alternatives mentioned (e.g. ribcage or keeping the default armor) that will add real protection values and possibly some other nice bonus effect?
- how do flying boots compare to boots of quickness? I thought quikness gave a defense bonus?
- I may be confused with another item, but wasn't there some issue with the Cat Charm making the wearer go feminine (don't know if that's bad)?

[Shovah32]

The cat charm dosnt have any bad effects, the text is just there for fun. Boots of quickness give +3 attack, +3 defence and allow you to act twice per round so are far better than flying boots in most cases. Ethereality gives you a 75% chance to ignore a non-magic attack that hits you so(particularly with high defence to reduce hits) it makes you alot tougher. The fact that you cant have your armour with the cloak does make you very vunerable to magic weapons and certain magics. A nice combination is boots of stone(grants high natural protection) and robe of shadows so you dont sacrifice much protection but i wouldnt reccomend it for you because you would lose quickness which is very useful.