Glamour post 3.08

Shovah32 · #1 June 27th, 2007, 03:52 PM

I honestly dont think they are that bad and i believe there are quite simply better sacreds out there. One of the big reasons vans get hit so hard is that they require slightly more specialized tactics to combat effectively and the ai tends to struggle with this(they are also probably the most well known and popular).

Baalz · #2 June 27th, 2007, 04:42 PM

Not to sound contentious, but I'm curious as to what you would consider a quite simply better sacred? Yes, obviously there are plenty of examples of different units being better in certain niches, and perhaps you can lay out an opinion that another unit is a straight up more cost effective combat unit (though I can't think of any). The thing about the vans though is they are extremely effective at *everything*. Sure, they'll beat the snot out of you through just brute force, but even if you do manage an effective counter, their glamored stealth plus high movement allows them to control the combat both strategically and tactically. Stopping their raiders is well nigh impossible for many nations, raiding them back is pretty much suicidal as you can't tell where any of their map-move 3 defenders are, and very few tactical rituals short of late game are effective given their MR and general hardiness. This is an aspect that often gets overlooked when people are complaining about their brute strength, their brute strength is multiplied by their insane versatility. That's why they're so hard to counter, stern resistance is not met with a headlong charge, but being greeted with that other aspect of the Vanir - the fact that they're better guerrilla warriors than Pangea.

High defense, high speed, high protection, high MR, high damage output (with a good bless), high stealth, high maxage.... given that, what sacred is quite simply better?

NTJedi · #3 June 27th, 2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Shovah32 said:
I honestly dont think they are that bad and i believe there are quite simply better sacreds out there. One of the big reasons vans get hit so hard is that they require slightly more specialized tactics to combat effectively and the ai tends to struggle with this(they are also probably the most well known and popular).

I agree Vans are not that bad especially since they are capital only. On very small quick game maps they obviously seem too powerful which is why we hear about it.
Even if one of the nations was more powerful it provides more of a security blanket for new players which will probably lose the first few games anyways.

Velusion · #4 June 27th, 2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

NTJedi said:
On very small quick game maps they obviously seem too powerful which is why we hear about it.

This is incorrect. Almost all of the people complaining about them here don't play blitzs or "quick game maps".

I'm still undecided about the changes being enough, but I thought I would clear up this common misperception.

Jazzepi · #5 June 27th, 2007, 06:11 PM

I never play blitzes, although Hidden Signs ended up being one because of the tiny size of the map. I don't think the game was designed with them in mind, and their tendency towards bless rush is boring for me.

Jazzepi

Micah · #6 June 27th, 2007, 06:50 PM

OTOH keep in mind that Van and Hel have the worst researchers in the game. 3 RP for 160 gold, temple and lab both required...that's significantly worse than using shaman researchers. They need troops that are kind of unfairly good, because their ability to get to late-game magic is kind of unfairly bad. It's also hard to take magic-3 with a double bless.

MA Van having build-anywhere sacreds is kind of over the top with their raiding potential though, I'll certainly agree to that.

Vans and helhirds may be overpowered, and they're certainly going to put the hurt on people early on...small maps are a problem, but their nations' magic potential is fairly low...I think it might make for a more interesting nation if the sacreds got bumped down a bit but some better research options were available...perhaps the addition of philosopher-like serf mages, forbidden to cast spells (no paths) that are employed to help research, maybe 5 RP for 100 gold. (philosophers are 50 for 5 and benefit from sloth scales IIRC, so hopefully that's not stepping on Arco's toes too much, since they're twice the cost.)

Adding something like that in exchange for some of the sacreds' power would open up more magical options later in the game for the glam nations and give them a tradeoff, not just a straight nerf. It would also allow them to make more decisions about where to focus instead of having to go for the bless strat every time. I think it's the units that are the problem, not the nations as a whole.

Velusion · #7 June 27th, 2007, 07:10 PM

I'm still undecided about how the latest patch helps but...

I pretty much agree with Micah about the root cause. It's not that the heims are completely unbalanced over the course of the game it's just that they have such an overwhelming early game strength that the vast majority of defenders have almost no chance against them. That aspect of their "play style" is simply not fun - no matter which side you are on.

You should always have a decent chance to at least fight off a rush nation.

Jazzepi · #8 June 27th, 2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Velusion said:
I'm still undecided about how the latest patch helps but...

I pretty much agree with Micah about the root cause. It's not that the heims are completely unbalanced over the course of the game it's just that they have such an overwhelming early game strength that the vast majority of defenders have almost no chance against them. That aspect of their "play style" is simply not fun - no matter which side you are on.

You should always have a decent chance to at least fight off a rush nation.

I agree with Velusion. I think the problem is that right now the nation is balanced for an entire game.

So your Vans might rush player A, and B, but then get crushed in the end game.

While this is fine for players C-F who didn't get rushed and still have a fair chance against them, but what ends up happening is that Vanheim is like this lottery ticket of death for 1-2 nations every time they get into a game with a bless rush strategy where there is no early game way to defend against it.

Jazzepi

Saint_Dude · #9 June 27th, 2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Velusion said:
You should always have a decent chance to at least fight off a rush nation.

That would be nice. But there are a number of nations (in addition to the vans) which can take out the majority of nations with an early bless rush irregardless of tactics.

Mictlan (all ages) - what do you do when you find out you have Mictlan as a neighbor on turn 5, and then are rushed by 50 dual blessed jags (and assorted chaff) on turn 7?

EA Niefelheim - what exactly is the early counter for blessed niefels? They eat vans for a light snack. Abysia can stand up to them, but who else?

MA Ermor - shadow vestals are nearly as cheap as jags and more resistant to counters such as massed archers. Depending on priests to save your bacon is laughable.

EA Pangaea and Lanka, and MA Marignon, Machaka and Jotunheim, - can also put together a pretty brutal rush. Better have your own bless strategy working or an awake SC pretender, or these nations will eat your lunch early on.

In short, nations with good sacreds and a good bless tend to eat their immediate neighbors in the early stages. The Vans are not unique.

NTJedi · #10 June 28th, 2007, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Velusion said:

Quote:

NTJedi said:
On very small quick game maps they obviously seem too powerful which is why we hear about it.

This is incorrect. Almost all of the people complaining about them here don't play blitzs or "quick game maps".

Vans are capital only units... so the larger the map the less their effectiveness. The only issue is with large maps custom start settings should be placed by the host otherwise five players could be jammed together while one player is far away in the empty garden of eden.
Also considering the game has so so many different nations it's nice to have one or two stronger nations... especially for the SP gamers. I could understand the logic of balancing all the nations if there were only 7 or less to choose as we see from most games... but we have 62 nations to choose thus let there be some variety.
HOW many nations can DOMINIONS_3 have until Illwinter is finally allowed to create one super powerful nation? 100? 500? 5000?
If every single game you play has to have all opponent options balanced then it removes the option of playing a multiplayer or singleplayer game with a very strong opponent.