Some notes on MA Mictlan update

Baalz · #1 July 30th, 2007, 10:10 AM

Yes, I like the proposed changes, FWIW I think it'd be a better idea to switch the jaguar/eagle being cap only rather than having the ability to recruit both everywhere. This will be a bit of a boost, but I wouldn't worry that this would be overpowering as in practice the eagle warriors have a much higher attrition rate than the jaguar warriors so you're definitely giving something up. I love the idea of of how different this one change would make the nation feel. Also, without the plan to switch to a blood economy fairly early, several of the scale choices are different so in general you're going to have a weaker bless.

To those who are commenting that adding an air priest is too powerful you've got to realize that in comparison to MA/LA they're completely losing extremely strong access to blood magic and by extension access to some of the better national summons in the game. Yes, if you're clever you can do nasty things with the air power but you'll have to work hard to convince me this is more dangerous than the blood they're giving up. The blood magic is what changes Mictlan from being one of the best nations EA/LA into one of the worst in MA...well actually one of the worst in the game.

Now, having said that, it might be more interesting rather than adding an air priest to change the coutail to be 3S 1N 2H +2 N/A. I've always felt that there wasn't really too much interesting to use the coutail for, but having air magic there opens up some interesting possibilities, and also makes air magic rather expensive since it's only a random on a 400gp cap only mage. Only 25% of them would be able to cast auspex, and these would also be the ones highly coveted for combat.

Chris_Byler · #2 July 30th, 2007, 11:48 AM

Abysia has H3 priests anywhere, too (in at least some ages).

But most nations that have an H3 priest at all (aside from prophets) also have an H2 anywhere; Mictlan is one of the very few exceptions with H3 in the capitol but only H1 outside it. That's one of the niches that Priest of the Law would fit, in addition to being a non-old leader, blesser and patroller. Allowing PotLs for blessing, sermon of courage etc. would free up the capitol priest-mages to use their magic paths more.

Baalz: I think that instead of changing the couatl, it would be more interesting to add a new unit and allow the player to choose which one to use (or in what combination to use both). That's why I suggested the quetzal (which I envisioned at something like A1 N1 (ANS)1.5, but anything reasonable would be better than nothing). Couatl does have uses in its current form (including moonvine bracelet, which would be hard to get with your version).

I'd like to see the current couatl, the sky priest and the quetzal all available at once, and see what that leads to, rather than preemptively deciding that it would be "too good". Nothing that's proposed for MA Mictlan comes near the powers of Theurgs, Seraphim or Disir, two of which are already running around in the middle age (on nations with superior military, too).

Don't forget that also by losing blood they also lose sabbath capability. In MA Mictlan only the moon priests and couatls can commune, so they don't have the ability to reach communion-boosted levels of fire and water (unless you have a pretender that can forge matrices) and can only boost nature and astral with considerable cost and difficulty - their only reliably communion *slaves* are capitol-only (again, without help from a suitable pretender or site mages like the Iron Order).

Baalz · #3 July 30th, 2007, 12:38 PM

Actually the Nahaulli becomes (IMO) the goto commander for non-capital recruiting in MA - they've got astral (and mesmerize before you�ve done any research). I think it'd be pretty cool to have flocks of flying communion slaves, I just never can bring myself to go with Nahaulli over Mictlan Priests in EA/LA...MA is a different story. With S/N coutails (presumably) leading the communion you're gonna have a hard time doing too much unsupported (and you've got no flying troops)...but S/N/A is a whole different story. This would give Mictlan some real teeth mid game just as their recruitable troops are starting to become obsolete (about the same time their blood economy begins kicking in EA/LA). Communion strength, to my mind, also fits the lawfulness/order theme. I also don't think it's going to be terribly hard to get moonvines, 25% of the coutails could forge them and it's not like you'll often need too many.

Kristoffer O · #4 July 30th, 2007, 05:08 PM

I though Mictlan was bit boring and weak, but have realized that they have lots of interesting stuff and options (they will still get their new stuff, don't worry).

I'm surprised to hear that people are not impressed with Couatls. I play MA Mictlan in my current MP game and I have been pleasantly surprised several times, by couatls, nahuallis, the priests in general, and available options. Only thing that has struck me as not very impressive are the jaguar warriors.

Hmm, I think I'll comment a bit:

Since you dont have blood, you will research other paths. Alteration is great. Luck, body ethereal, haste, wooden warriors, swarm, battle fortune, and later on frozen heart and blindness for all those little priests you have everywhere. This will make your priests war mages, instead of blood gatherers and researchers. I think that suits my play style

. Thau is also nioce for site search and panic (which is quite good vs indeps at least).

Couatl: Great unit, flies to every battle in wich you need him. Bring a couple of gems for power of the spheres, battle fortune, haste on your jaguars. Have him cast Vine ogre, in the fortress of your choice. Most other priests tend to get stuck at one place, if there are terrain hinders.

Nahualli: Likewise. Turkey-rain on your enemies. With swarm, wooden warriors and panic they are very nice. Excellent to quickly replenish your gem supplies in your front lines. Particulary fire gems for your sun priests and nature gems for your swarmers.

Sun priests: Great. Cost 130 since they are not as powerful priests. With phoenix power and some gems they can cast flaming arrows on your slingers.

Mictlan Priest: Dirt cheap. Much more useful with a couple of random lvl1 than some B! mage in combat. Can be used to swarm, frozen heart, blindness, luck, phoenix power+fire spells etc.

Jaguar warriors: I have a F9D9 blessing, and it's been rather unimpressive

. I've been bladewinded to nothingness, and I'm way more impressed with my eagle warriors who actually arrived to wreak some havoc before they died. Only when I sucessfully got some wooden warriors cast on the Jaguars or when i got swarm and gems to cast it did some of them arrive at the far end of the battlefield.

Priest king: Useful for indy conquest. Very nice smiter at start. You need them to bless as well. Quite nice with panic.

Over all you have very cheap mages, that are also sacred. None very powerful, but powerful enough to participate in a war, and cheap enough to be expendable. It is also quit fun to have a wide array of mages in a battle. If you only have fire magic you don't have that many options.

I'm pleasantly surprised about the nation.

Surprises:
- my slingers, that were great when fighting indys, were suddenly mashed when they met air blessed sidhes

- my jaguars, that never were many enough to actually arrive at the enemy blade wind casters or their defenders

Meglobob · #5 July 30th, 2007, 05:33 PM

If you had took W9 blessing your jaguar warriors would have reached the otherside of the battlefield and been more impressive.

However with that D9 on your pretender you can get Tartarians going for the late game and ghost riders, plus whatever else you can come up with...oh joy...

Shovah32 · #6 July 30th, 2007, 06:21 PM

W9 bless would have got your jaguars there faster, S9 would have made them even tougher(twist fate+second form means they take alot of hits before going down) and more resistant to some spells, a minor air bless (air queens, fog warriors, staff o' storms ect) would also have helped a little but not hugely.

Your F9D9 jaguars should, however, be very capable when it comes to taking down enemy thugs ect.

Also: How much did you shield your jaguars?

Jazzepi · #7 July 30th, 2007, 06:30 PM

Jaguars are amazing with a water bless. It allows them to move very quickly. If MA Mictlan is going to get casters capable of casting arrow fend, I can imagine jaguar only armies storming across the continent.

Jazzepi

Jazzepi · #8 July 30th, 2007, 06:39 PM

Actually, I can't quite imagine an recruitable army I'd fear more than an *** ton of jaguar warriors backed up by fog warriors, arrow fend, mist, and storm.

Jazzepi

Kuritza · #9 August 17th, 2007, 06:45 AM

Making Jaguars home-only and eagles recruitable everywhere would be a big nerf to MA Mictlan. I dont think MA Mictlan needs a nerf.

Mictlan's PD is also awful enough already, eagle warriors wont help it.
Btw, speaking of nerfs, why making High Seraphs home-only? Its not like Caelum is as powerful as its used to be in Dom2. Lightings nerfed, quickness nerfed, false horrors nerfed, armies bigger than in Dom2 (so harder to overshoot with combat spells), High Seraphs old... Arent you affraid it will be the last nail in a coffin?

Gandalf Parker · #10 August 17th, 2007, 10:53 AM

Couatls are great as mobile support for an army. But they need a flying unit that can accompany it. I like to summon demons but I think they are even better if I can find crystal amazons.

If you think MA Mictlan was abit boring then loosen the restrictions on Lord of Night. Its a Mictlan-only god and at the moment only EA Mictlan gets it.