Opinions on Caelum (MA and other)

[Gandalf Parker]

The problem I see with the impression of strength in Caelum is that its a hard nation to find anyone playing it AS Caelum. Many people tend to ignore the basic thematic advantages of the nation and play it was they would a Civ4 nation. Of course, in that mode its pretty weak.

Some boosts to make it better able to make use of flying armies, and cold, might help. But it would be hard to do that without making it too powerful for those who are properly playing it.

[thejeff]

It's widely acknowledged as one of the best raiding nations. That seems a fairly thematic use. But isn't enough to make it too powerful. At some point you actually have to take and hold land.

The problem with relying on the flying armies is that the flying troops are weak. Good archers, but there are cheaper good archers and archers are easy to counter. There are cheap counters to both cold and lightning, at least for thugs, that counter most of what the mages can do.

If there's a proper, thematic way to play it, that will actually work in a regular MP game (not a tiny blitz map, but not one of your huge maps either) then it shouldn't be boosted. Can you suggest one?

[Warhammer]

What I would love to do with EA Caelum is take some Eagle Kings, kit them out, put them on orders to attack archers or attack rear, and then spam Shock Wave or something similar. I think that would be cool, but I am too afraid to potentially waste such an expensive unit that way.

[Saint_Dude]

With an E9 bless and a few buffs, Eagle Kings can be very effective when used this way. They don't really need to be kitted out, although reinvigoration items are useful.

[PyroStock]

There is a definite need for more wraparound maps.

Yes, please More wrap arounds.

I'd love to see "wraparound" as a random map feature.

This.

//I haven't tried Caelum yet.

[Kuritza]

Its weak.

Troops are just bad. Archers are ok, though not stellar (shortbows). Infantry is crap. Mammoths are good, but lategame they are quite counterable. No reliable meat shield.
Mages - not stellar. High seraphs are ok with thunderstrike, but regular seraphs are so-so, even when orb lighting is researched. Lightning doesnt even reliably kill 1 regular unit anymore, quickness doesnt allow to shoot them twice per turn, etc etc.
Raiding - who said raiding?.. Decent flying infantry troops have movement 2 (not 3), take hellish amount of time to amass and dont fight that well. In fact, they die rather easily and rout all the time. And due to the fact they arent stealthy they are also vulnerable to teleporting and cloud trapezing responses, as well as global spells.
Magic paths diversity - poor. Just 2 paths, both inefficient against SC's and thugs. Also, Caelum has difficulties equipping SCs and thugs itself. There are no AOE lightning weapons, and cold AOE doesnt hurt undead, constructs etc.

So, bad troops, average mages, little sound lategame strategies I can think of. I'd rate Caelum as one of the worst nations atm.

[Aethyr]

Although I don't agree with Kuritza, I think Caelum is not as powerful as it was in DOM2, and that making the High S. capitol only is not the way to go.

On the other hand, while I'd be concerned about making them too powerful, I've always wondered, thematicaly, why they don't have a blessable unit that flys...

[quantum_mechani]

MA Caelum is not as weak as you make it out to be, it is true it doesn't have all that many possible angles in the early game, but what options it does have are very powerful. And it's true they can be screwed later on if they fail to diversify, but that's true of almost everyone.

The thing about raiding with Caelum is you really do have to just about ignore the flying infantry. Build your raid groups instead out of mages and archers, with decoy archers spread around. 20-30 archers and 1-2 mages properly deployed can deal with most reasonable PD.

They also have a lot of other little bonuses, virtual immunity to unrest from spies, extra points from cold 3, a mage with a forge bonus, flying scouts, ashema spentas for late game.

[Sir_Dr_D]

It sounds to me like the infantry need to get fixed up. Giving them +4 defence might do it. You want them powerfull enough so that they don't get killed so easy, but still weaker then other infantry. The slight weakness would be made up for by flying.

I have never played caelum in multiplayer, but if I did I would want to use the flying infantry.That is what is supposed to make Caelum unique. If Instead of using flying units you are forced to use mammoths, then a lot of the appeal of that nation is gone.

Personally from a themantic percpective I think that the high seraph should be capital only, flying infantry made stronger, and mammoths made slower.Mammoths should not be feared as much as elephants. They should be a strategic option that is handy at times, such as Pythiums Hydra, and not the only viable strategy.