Poll: Is Clam Hording Too Good?

[llamabeast]

Yeah, if people agree that clam hoarding is a necessary strategy for long games, I think that's really not good. No strategy should be effectively necessary, especially one that doesn't require skill and isn't really fun in itself.

[Hadrian_II]

llamabeast said:
Yeah, if people agree that clam hoarding is a necessary strategy for long games, I think that's really not good. No strategy should be effectively necessary, especially one that doesn't require skill and isn't really fun in itself.

I think that rising your income is as important and that it does not need more skill as research does not make it a bad strategy. I think the problem is that some nations do have access to it and some nations not. In perpetuality, most nations have a gem income around 80 at turn 66 and if a nation is seriously clamming, then her gem income is the double of it. Now the nations that cant clam (or build earth stones) are a little (little is subjective ) bit on the disatvantage.

[Xietor]

KO has said that he never wants game play dictated to a narrow set of choices. On large maps, Clam hording-which is not fun-is clearly necessary if you want compete.

Compounding the problem, it requires zero skill, and combined with wish, can allow a "dolt" to win a large game against a superior player who refuses to use such a lame tactic. And it is a lame tactic.

[Jazzepi]

I don't think clam hording is a lame tactic. Honestly I don't even believe in calling a tactic lame. That sort of language is what bad players use in the arcade when they repeatedly get tripped in Mortal Kombat. If you can't beat a tactic, don't call it lame, adapt to it.

That said, I do think it is *boring* when there is only one choice. It should be made clear that almost every nation begins to become one terrifying amalgamation where late magic diversity means that everyone has access to all spells, so it's not surprising that the game slides into a single tactic state after a certain point.

I really liked Baalz's suggestion that there be a spell that destroyed all items of one type. I think this would make clam hording a much risker investment then it is now, where you're basically guaranteed income from the gems the turn after their conception. Obviously you could tweak the spell, maybe it only cuts the number of them in half, or some-such. There's only about a billion ways you could make it different but still use it to discourage massive amounts of clam hording.

Jazzepi

[Micah]

Researching pretty much fits all of the criteria people are complaining about, but I don't hear anyone wanting to take that out.

It is non-optional in any sort of long game.
It is harder for some nations to research than others.
It is not fun.
It requires about as much MM to set a turn's worth of mages to research as it does to forge and assign a clam.

The only thing it really has going for it is that it takes some skill to prioritize the path order.

Also, the UW nations (possibly excepting LA Rlyeh due to freespawn) have a hell of a time being relevant on land in most games even with clamming, something would need to be given to them to compensate if they were removed or nerfed.

[Jazzepi]

Research isn't comparable to clamming at all. The complaint, valid or not, behind clamming (or any other gem production item) is that investing in it absolutely vital to stay competitive in the late game.

Research, however, has so many different varied paths that equating it to clam hording is just silly, prioritizing research, and even researching in response to/anticipation of a particular threat is very important. It separates the good players from the bad. I also think researching is quite fun. It creates an interesting tension between access to fewer spells of higher level, or more spells of a lower level.

Jazzepi

[Evilhomer]

As velusion said clams are very potent in the long games no doubt about it - especially after wish is reached. Removing them (or having some ridicilous spell being able to destroy them) is not a good choice however since you will basically cripple high astral dependent nations like R'lyeh.

At the current cost they will take 15+ turns to pay off basically, which is a risky investment.

I think a good solution is to mod them for whatever game you are expecting to play. In a short-mid game keep the original cost. In long games on large maps that is expected to go 100+ turns increase their cost slightly (by 5 water or nature gems). Of course in such games blood stones should have their cost increased as well.

[Olive]

I think clamhoarding is OK the way it actually works. Anyway, a less "artificial" way to counter - but not too much - clamhoarding would be to add a slight chance oh being horror marked for the bearer of the clam. Something similar to lightless lanterns for example. Similar to blood contracts would be too much imho.

[Warhammer]

The thing is there are so many ways to increase gem income that I think it is silly to isolate one tactic of increasing gem income and say that it is unbalanced. I think the problem that people have with it is the flexibility of astral pearls. But, consider this, if you have 20 clams a turn, and you are alchemizing them, you will only have 10 gems after you do so. Is 10 gems significant? If it was adding to a gem income of 5, sure that's significant, but if it is adding to a gem income of 25, its not as big of a deal.

[Meglobob]

I voted claming is fine exactly the way it is and I am non-clammer, I have only seriously clammed once and that was as EA Oceania. It did me no good whatsoever, as EA Caelum won the game.

If clamming gets nerfed, then the, 'nerfs', abit like smurfs will just jump on another part of the game and try to nerf that as well.

I would suggest that if you are a nation who can't gem spam then you should seek to attack gem spammers, especially if you are playing in a long game.

Like I think I have said before, its much, much more easy to blood hunt then gem spam. By the time the gem spammer is getting 100gems/turn, the blood hunt spammer can be getting 400 - 600 blood slaves per turn.

Its part of the late game, the entire idea of the late game is too unbalance the game. In your favour, so you can win!

Loads of things unbalance the late game such as:-

Limited uniques to summon.
Unique artifacts.
Gem spamming.
Blood hunting.
Globals such as Arcane Nexus, Forge of Ancients, Utterdark etc...

Usually they end up spread around several players which creates a balance which is resolved by war, sooner or later.

So where's the problem?