OOBs way out of whack?

[Deputy]

Marek: Yes...I could belive and agree 100% with what you say.....IF....I hadn't cut the nuts off the US forces by lowering EVERYTHING I could on them and theoretically made the Germans into supermen . Even with those changes in the preferences, the US Infantry appear to be supersoldiers. I don't think this situation is random chance. I think maybe there is something in the game engine that actually prevents giving an extreme advdantage to EITHER side. I think I will fool around with the preferences and pump the US side to max and lower the German side. And also put them both at the lowest setting. Just to see what happens

Dep

[Marek_Tucan]

Just made a quick test: USA - rifle platoon 43, two Bazooka platoons. In the open.
Germany: Tiger platoon - one tiger for each Bazooka plt, two for one rifle plt; four FJg platoons.
Preferences: all maxed out for Germans; all lowest possible for US.
US troops didn't opfire moving infantry. Moving Tiger just at ponintblank. Tigers at exp. 120 got insanely many shots and usually their approach to Bazooka teams was one shot - one kill. Moving FjG squad from ca. 8 hexes scored two kills on first salvo. Had three squads promenading around a rifle sqad, no reaction, then one squad fires and obliterates US squad in one salvo, completely. From all the bazookas firing at the two close Tigers, there was one uneffective hit. Preference changes do work...
Now of course this was in the open - if enemy infantry is stuck in cover (rough, trees, buildings...) it can take insane beating and still fight on, esp. with good commander rally rating. Just try British campaign in Africa, stay behind Italian heroes can turn slaughtering general rout with tanks into pretty dangerous undertaking, and often they do recruit from pretty beaten up squads.

[Deputy]

I am in Italy in this campaign. I just can't see where ANY bazooka should be able to easily kill a Tiger at ANY range or in any terrian. It didn't happen in the real war and the chances of it happening in the sim should be zero if I have US Prefs set at lowest number and all Germans set at max numbers. The WW2 bazooka was almost useless against a Tiger unless you hit it from the rear or hit a track. And all US kills so far have been frontal hits. The Tiger shooting both cannon and machinegun against the bazooka takes numerous hits just to get ONE injury. I pounded an Infantry platoon with 5 Tigers from 3 hexes away and the worst that happened was they got "pinned". That's with machineguns AND cannon. US and German Infantry are in the same terrain. US Infantry fire is deadly against German Infantry from 10 hexes away. German Infantry, including the MG42, is worthless. Doesn't even cause US troops to hit the ground.

When I do this in WinSPBMT everything works as it should. Soviet T-80 tanks can't hit the targets, and when they do hit them, it bounces off. Even aluminum APCs survive the hits. Same with Soviet anti-tank missiles. Most times they miss completely. I still think I am gonna have to hack the OOB and reduce the abilities of the US.

[Mobhack]

The M9A1 bazooka penetration was 5 inches - the OOB figure is 12cm. The tiger tank front armour in the OOB is 12, so the basic bazooka round can penetrate, since pen is greater than or equal to armour.(Warhead size, or critical hits, can occasionally increase pen, but as it is a HEAT round, it can have reduced pen or even a fuse failure).

It is impossible to say why you are having problems with your infantry, without any information as to what you are doing, or what status the enemy is in - for example if the USA in your example is dug in and defending, then hitting size 0 bazooka teams will be difficult. And, if you are trying the common beginners mistake of attempting moving your infantry over 1 hex while under fire, then they will suffer, or moving any troops (tanks don't have stabilisers in WW2) over a hex or so, and then expecting good shooting results. See the "Game Play Notes" section of the Game Guide for tactical hints.

Cheers
Andy

[Deputy]

Hi Andy,
That's interesting info. But just shoveling data into the mix isn't very useful. The bazooka, like a single M4 tank with the 75MM gun, was all but worthless against Tiger tanks. IDEALLY, with a perfect 90 degree hit, the 5 inch penetration would be possible. But ideal hits while in combat are notoriously elusive Bazookas were notorious for bouncing off Tiger tanks. Even the MKIV had to be hit in just the right spot to kill it. Again, a REAR impact in the engine area would be the ideal hit.

As to the M9A1, my scenario was taking place in Italy in 1943. The M9 is the weapon being used. The M9A1 didn't come out till September 1944.

But ALL of that shouldn't matter one bit. What SHOULD make a MAJOR difference is my Preferences settings. I have ALL of the US settings set at lowest levels and all the German settings set at highest. So no bazooka should be able to hit and kill a Tiger tank unless it has repeated impacts to the rear of the tank. US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced. That's where I see the problem. We could split hairs forever about whether a bazooka can kill a Tiger. But with the settings I have in place, it shouldn't even be able to HIT one, much less destroy it.

Dep

[Deputy]

Oops...sorry all. I didn't see the posts under Andy's at first. I will zip up my preferences ini and post it ASAP.

Dep

[Mobhack]

looking at the code, the line that does the accuracy adjustment is in the middle of the various spaghetti code. (It is not something I had looked at, ever, so is likely to be in its original place!). Various adjustments for movement and target size etc came after the percentage divider.

In my test scenario, US bazookas were opening up at about 14% shot 1 hit chance. Cranking their preference setting to 30% to-hit only lowered that to 10-11%.

So I commented out that line, copied it to the end of the accuracy-determination spaghetti, and the to-hits went to 6-7% first-shot. Not 30%, but these numbers get modified elsewhere in the spaghetti, by things like leader ratings and all that jazz, so determining precise values, even with the code to hand, is nigh impossible. (And we still get folks who want the "tables" ).

Note to self - if I ever write a wargame engine from the ground-up, make it table based, just like normal tabletop rules!.

Solution to make the code behave as end users would expect, is to move that line to where I did, it seems.

Good catch! - something we all had assumed was working in the original SSI code, was not.

Cheers
Andy

[pdoktar]

Deputy said:

US Infantry dug in? Sjouldn't matter hardly at all. Two direct hits with an 88 on the Infantry hex and they should either be eliminated or in flight and disperced.
Dep

You are probbly talking this when the prefences for american infantry is set to min. Because in a 50x50meter area that a hex represents, two 88mm HE shells will not rout a normal infantry squad in real life, shrapnel may not even hit anyone or explosion cause slight concussions. Otherwise infantry would be so useless in combat that everybody should only be using tanks and aircraft etc.

Hence everybody around the world is screaming all the time for bigger guns and airburst rounds and more HE effect on the target. A normal infantry squad is hard to remove / rout from any terrain with just two 88mm shots.

[DRG]

Oh please........

Chucky only quotes the sources that support his ideas. Don't forget how quick he was to support your "death rays attached to the bombs" theory which you later retracted.

You barely understand the way the game works and yet are willing to jump in and modify weapon data based on who knows what preferences settings. It's "death rays attached to the bombs and destroy everything in sight" all over again. I can only imagine what's next.

What Andy told you was the change he made to the code lowers a first shot to hit when the preferences are set to 30% from the existing "10-11%" to "6-7% "....... OK ? When the preferences are set normally that would only be about a 14% chance So IF he puts that change in anyone who cranks the preferences down to 30% ( only you that I know about.....) will only see a 4-5 % change in the first shot to hit from what they see now when it's set to 30%. At best you'd go from 1 chance in 10 of hitting to 1 chance in 15 or thereabouts. It doesn't even begin to explain what you described in your first post and the dramatic difference between what you claim is happening in your game and what I saw and what Marek documented in his post.

I am STILL waiting for that preferences.INI that you told me was going to be posted "ASAP"

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Deputy
Yes the Bazooka seems to be overrated in its effectiveness in the game,
from
http://boards.historychannel.com/thr...geID=100030677
"Gavin experimented with all three, using a knocked out Sherman tank I believe. He found the bazooka produces a 1/2 inch hole in the frontal armor, the Panzerschreck (the German Bazooka) made a 1 1/2 inch hole and the Panzerfaust a 3 1/2 inch hole, which would have killed all of the occupants in all likelihood. The bazooka could be effective if a German tank could be hit from the side, with some luck."
and
"Ian Hogg gave these figures for the penetration of various shaped-charge weapons:
PIAT= 75mm
2.36" Bazooka = 80mm
Panzerfaust 30/60 =200mm (at 30 degrees)
88mm Panzerschreck = 100mm"
from I believe
Ian V. Hogg 'The Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II'
The Ian Hogg penetration value does agree with this 'testimonial' from
http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_6.htm#p127
"The 1st Battalion refused to panic and set to work with bazookas against the flanks of the blinded tanks. One of the panzers was crippled, but the crew compartment proved impervious to bazooka rounds (perhaps this was a Tiger)"
Apparently bazooka couldnt penetrate tiger side armour, this makes sense as Tiger side armour is 80cm coinciding with Ian Hoggs penetration value for bazooka.
also
from
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m9-bazooka.htm
"One officer fired 22 -bazooka- rounds at about 15 yards range against the rear of the -t34- tanks where their armor is weakest, but to no effect"
So possibly under lab conditions the bazooka could "penetrate" 5 inches of armour but maybe the hole was just big enough to get a needle through and so did little or no "plasm jet" got through or maybe the heat of the plasma jet after 5 inches of armour was much lower and hence less damaging.
anyway, from
http://www.100thww2.org/support/776tankhits.html
Note from test "e" that after penetrating only 50mm af armour the hole has already decreased to the size of a pencil.
Certainly a lot of sites say the bazooka wasnt very effective against german armour but was more commonly used against bunkers.
various sites give the bazooka various penetration values
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust13.htm
for instance quotes a penetration of 100mm ie 10.
This site quotes hoggs penetration of 100mm for panzershreck
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerschreck
In-game Panzerschreck has penetration of 20 twice Ian Hoggs figure, again the difference may in some way be explained by little effect after penetration is achieved through the thicker armours. Perhaps like antitank rifles HEAT warheads should be given more "star" results rather than outright kills, and possibly have their penetrations reduced somewhat to confirm to the "real-life" testimonials and Ian Hoggs figures?
Best Regards Chuck.