vengeance of the dead, how it works with 1000+ ?

[triqui]

kasnavada said:
You have refused the solutions because you do not like them, not because they fail to achieve the wanted result : "getting rid of the unlogical kills caused by time limitation", which cause the problem here. Maybe I should have stated the objective of the solutions I proposed before. I simply thought that vengeance of the dead before the time limit causes no problem, and that the combinaison with the time limit causes the problem. Therefore I set out to destroy any way I can that time limit.

The problem is that you dont seem to understant where the problem lies. The only problem is vengeance of the dead, not the turn limit, period. There are NOT unlogical kills caused by time limitation anywhere in any other moment. At turn 50 the attacker RETIRES (not die) and in turn 75 the defender retires if the attacker havent done so (he might be paralized for example). They dont die, so there is no "unlogical kills" needed to be solved. You are messing with an akward solution that requires to change the game mechanics (like no recruiting, or taxing, a province) to solve a problem that does not exist. The only problem is that, during VotD, the attacker does not retreat as it is supposed to do, period. So fix the VotD, not the entire game

Now, tell me, what in the concept I propose is so flawed that it doesn't "work".

It would need an entire encyclopedia, but i will state just a few.

In your example you conveniently made the fighters attack a third uncontrolled (Since both attack it) province. What if one of them is attacking a province controlled by another player? The province go "uncontested", as you said. Fine. Now we have a capitol from one of the players "uncontested".

More problems: it _IS_ perfectly possible to produce an infinite battle, even with reinforcements. Several SC builds can be done that they cannot die in 50 turns. That will, still, stale the game forever.

The whole "no need to sleeep item" is a complete non-sense. First, not every character would have it equipped before they enter in a locking battle, mainly becouse they might not know that the battle will be locked. If you mean that everybody has such items "freely", well, then you have just erased Vengeance of the Dead from the game (As the spell attacks you while you sleep, its a nightmare).

Your proposal is complicated, absurd, destroy the suspension of disbelief, is unthematic, do not really resolve the problem of VotD (one month sleeping? ), it's akward and weird, will provoke more bugs and problems, it still might produce infinite loop battles (VotD with a SC that only does poison damage -the UD are inmune- and has more than enough regeneration and protection to be unkillable in 50 turns, just to point an easy one), do not have any single adventage over a hard cap turn limit, is hard to implement, and is just copied from a different game that has completelly different basis.

In short, it sucks. I'm sorry if i burst your bubble, but the idea you thougth was so awesome, is not so awesome.

Feel free to answer or not, i wont waste more time to restate that your idea is not worth it, the hard cap limit is 1000 times better.

[Reay]

So the souls do not suffer mindless dissolution after turn 50 because they are all leaders? Mindless also never rout, so it seems VOTD is working as designed otherwise they would not have made the souls all leaders.

Oh well I'd prefer if there was only one or two leaders so the souls would all suffer mindless dissolution after turn 50. I guess the developers can argue thematically that this is a dream and therefore can justify time out kills.

[Rathar]

/beatsadeadhorse.

Dude Triqui, you are being a condescending weenie.

[kasnavada]

That's the reason why I asked for the input of others, since he seems to be the only one to see impossibilities where there is none.

Now we have a capitol from one of the players "uncontested".

Yes, so what is the problem exactly if no one controls the capital province ?

More problems: it _IS_ perfectly possible to produce an infinite battle, even with reinforcements. Several SC builds can be done that they cannot die in 50 turns. That will, still, stale the game forever.

. That's the very reason I also suggested a fatigue mechanism for battle that last months, as a balance mechanism...

Also, you seem to forget that Dominions is not made from one single province but a lot of them. The war around would go on, even if 3 or 4 provinces are blocked.

The whole "no need to sleeep item" is a complete non-sense.

Sigh... as is magic or in the most part all fantasy or science fiction games. I mean, gods walking the earth ? battles that are always fought during a single day in daylight ? If you are to remove all that doesn't make sense, you are going to remove just everything. It's to the devs to decide whether it make sense or not.

As far as I know, it might make sense to them that all troops fight in a single day in daylight in a month and all attackers rout at 5 pm and troops that can't rout die at 8 pm.

Your proposal is (...)

Who do you think you are ? All those point are for the game creators to decide, not you ! As far as I know, it's not written "johan osterman" nor "Kristoffer O" in your name tag. You simply do not know whether the solution I propose is whatever you call it, because it's not your decision, and AFAIK, it's not anything you (or I) can know about...

In short, it sucks. I'm sorry if i burst your bubble, but the idea you thougth was so awesome, is not so awesome.

Again, I don't care if you think it sucks. I don't care about it being awesome. I don't care if it's complicated. The only think I'm interested in is whether it works, or not.

Since you seem bent on the idea that it doesn't, and I think the opposite, I asked for other people to point out which one is right.

Sad to see that only a few care ! Well, of course, after a page of discussion, I would also be reluctant to join and write some more...

[Kristoffer O]

Be civil, please.

Rathar: I would have preferred if you said "Dude Triqui, you come out as unreasonably condescending", or something similar. The weenie part is unnecessary.

[Agrajag]

Here's a question for ya kasnavada, what happens when a third nation attacks a contested province?

[kasnavada]

The game currently doesn't support 3 way fights. The battle system would have to change so it can support it.

Ideas : instead of having two sides, you would have the first two 'first' sides fighting each other and having the third one coming from the side. Or, to keep a closer "layout" compared to what exists now, from the back of one of the nations involved (the 3rd attacker could chooses which one ? as a bonus ? ). Or something else.

[triqui]

Agrajag said:
Here's a question for ya kasnavada, what happens when a third nation attacks a contested province?

point, game, set and match.

And that's just the point of the iceberg of the several and several bugs and complications you could get just becouse you try to introduce a *completelly unnecessary* mechanism to fix something that *is not what is broken*

Start to think about how many complications you could find: several nations fighting there, several ritual combat spells there, people entering an breaking sieges, etc.

What about this?
instead of a third army joining the battle (which would be "solved" by the army entering the battle from a side), TEN different armies join the fight. From 10 different nations (using flying, teleport, cloudtrapeze, and what not). How do you put them in combat? 3 x side?

Or what about this:

2 armies fighting a contested province, in a long, draw battle (2 strong SC very hard to kill). Suddenly, one of the players attepmt an assasination. That also becomes a locked battle. Other player (from a third nation if you want), cast vengance of the dead, which target the same SC. It also becomes a lock battle. So now we have a character that is fighting THREE DIFFERENT locked battles in the SAME PROVINCE, for SEVERAL MONTHS. And we have not even started to playtest it with the really complicated issues.

What about if 10 assasins try to assasinate the same SC, which happen to lock the first one battle. Do the assasins stay there sitting on a rock waiting their turn? do they gangbang the SC (assasins should fight alone) Do the SC enter 10 different locked battles?

Sorry to burst your bubble again but *it doesn't work*. Doesn't. In present tense. It *might* work in another game (be it dominions 4 or The sims 3). In this game, with this ruleset, it does not work.