OT: Soviet Re-Birth

[Fyron]

Randallw said:
My stance is that these are morals that they believe in and believe are good for people. If you don't let them try to enact them then you are basically saying "ok you can be in government but don't try to do what you think is best".

So are you saying we should allow the christian fundamentalists to destroy science education by putting ID as a first-class member of biology class? We should deny human beings rights based on sexual orientation, just because some fundamentalists read the Bible incorrectly (along the same exact lines as gender and racial discrimination in the past)?

In my mind there is soemthing wrong with people that don't believe in something.

Humanist egalitarianism is not something valid to believe in? Secularism is not a lack of belief in anything, its belief in not governing by an arbitrary organized religion (since that has always lead to tyranny against the other in the whole of human history).

Spectarofdeath said:
I agree with the democrats that the wealthy (who have much more to give) should make a much larger contribution to the nation then the poor (who don't have much to give)

30% of 1,000,000 is a hell of a lot more money than 30% of 40,000. Whatever happened to the principles of liberty and equality?

Also the whole voting system (electoral college) deciding who wins is flawed. Whats the point in even counting the popular vote?

The point is that the US is a confederation of semi-independent states, not one singular mono-nation with power stemming from the top. It was set up the way it is so that every state at least gets some say in the government, regardless of population. If you do away with the electoral college and go to a straight, nation-wide popular vote, you also need to do away with the Senate. It creates vastly disproportional representation in the national legislature as well. You should probably also do away with the separation of powers between state and federal governments, since its all part of the same basic form of government. The electoral college is a far more complex issue than one might imagine.

[Randallw]

Fyron said:
So are you saying we should allow the christian fundamentalists to destroy science education by putting ID as a first-class member of biology class? We should deny human beings rights based on sexual orientation, just because some fundamentalists read the Bible incorrectly (along the same exact lines as gender and racial discrimination in the past)?

I don't know what form of ID you are speaking of but the idea that God created Earth is theology not biology. I also don't know what fundamentalists believe. If it's not Catholic or Orthodox I just label it as Protestant and delve no further.

Humanist egalitarianism is not something valid to believe in? Secularism is not a lack of belief in anything, its belief in not governing by an arbitrary organized religion (since that has always lead to tyranny against the other in the whole of human history).

Violence isn't an aspect of religion, it's an aspect of people. People are flawed and ruin whatever they claim to believe in. I've seen advertisments by atheists and their level of vehemence shows me just because they can't believe in God doesn't mean they aren't cruel and vicious. I don't exactly know what Humanism is.

[Azselendor]

There is only one form of Intelligent Design. And if it gets into our schools, watch 2 things happen.

1.) A generation of the dumbest americans to ever exist.
2.) Endless lawsuits by fringe groups suing the government's education system into bankruptcy to get their religion's theory's pushed into schools. After all, GOTTA TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!

Mark my words, if ID gets in, in months we'll be teaching Lord Xenu in history class, The earth is flat in geography, and teaching other things that shouldn't be taught in schools.

All funded by your taxpayer dollars.

Like that public ally funded islamic charter school in Minnesota.

Secular school systems are a very strong and good thing. polluting it with religious ideology

[AgentZero]

I don't really see how Russia returning to Communism would really be a huge deal, aside from the knee-jerk "ZOMG! Communism is teh opozit of democrasee! Oh noes! They gonna kill us all!"

Communism is an economic system. Democracy is a political system. There's no reason the two can't co-exist, even in the same country. I'd be more worried about Russia falling back into being a totalitarian state. Because that would be very bad, regardless of which economic system the new dictator chooses.

[douglas]

Randallw said:
I don't know what form of ID you are speaking of but the idea that God created Earth is theology not biology. I also don't know what fundamentalists believe. If it's not Catholic or Orthodox I just label it as Protestant and delve no further.

The particular form isn't very important. The central concept is that proponents of the various variants of "Intelligent Design" each want their particular brand of theology to be taught in public schools as science.

[Atrocities]

I am firmly entrenched as a moderate. I value ideals from both parties. However I will not vote for either of the two candidates for President. I just cannot do it. Of all the people who could run, these, these three, are all that we get to choose from? The system is broken. I just cannot believe that these are the turds that managed to not get flushed away. What are the odds?

[Fyron]

AgentZero said:
Communism is an economic system. Democracy is a political system. There's no reason the two can't co-exist, even in the same country.

In theory, that is true. In practice, its very difficult to actually maintain communism and democracy in the same system. Communism goes against every basic instinct of mankind (greed, self-interest, the desire to better one's lot in life), and requires major sacrifices and suppression to maintain. Very few people would willingly wish to actually live in a communist ideal, which leads to those in power in such systems often resorting to violence to maintain the system, and eventually totalitarianism. We have plenty of examples of this, but 0 examples of well-functioning, democratic communist societies.

Randallw said:
I don't know what form of ID you are speaking of but the idea that God created Earth is theology not biology.

Yes, this is true. But according to the Intelligent Design movement, it is biology, and should be taught as an alternative to evolution. Its a massive problem here in the States.. Every time it gets shot down in the courts, it morphs into a new form and begins is reign of terror anew in another state.

I also don't know what fundamentalists believe. If it's not Catholic or Orthodox I just label it as Protestant and delve no further.

Intentional ignorance damages one's ability for critical thought. Refusing to learn about the other is what has lead to most conflicts throughout history.

Violence isn't an aspect of religion, it's an aspect of people.

Careful with the blanket statements you make; history is filled with religions founded entirely on violence. Mayans and Aztecs make the most horrific examples, but there have been "death cults" and such all throughout history. All of the modern major world religions are founded on peaceful precepts, but that doesn't mean organized religion never has any aspects of violence. If you still wish to say violence is only an aspect of people, you must also logically say that peace is also only an aspect of people, not of religion.

People are flawed and ruin whatever they claim to believe in.

Exactly. This is why its best to keep religion out of government, because those in power will use it to benefit the "official religion" at the expense of everyone else. I put that in scare quotes because it still happens even when the organized religion in question isn't technically the official state religion. Most modern democracies forbid the intermingling of state and religion for very good reason..

I don't exactly know what Humanism is.

Wikipedia knows.

[Spectarofdeath]

I don't worry about them being communist on it's own, I worry more about a allied Russia and China and yes, I know it's got like not even .10 chance of happening.

Edit: Yipeee!!! 300 posts!!!

[Azselendor]

actually, what ID proponents are doing now is attacking the laws that restrict a teacher from teaching falsehoods. So now teachers can say whatever they want and not be held accountable.

As for Russia, when did the communism end comrade? Most of the old communist party found new jobs as capitalist swine. lol. I think they tore a page out of china's book.

"Yes, were communist -- but we'll get rich at the same time off your sweat and toil."

We should all join the church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and join the ID movement to force the teaching of the Theory of Intelligent Pushing. Gravity doesn't exist.