Mod: Conceptual Balance 1.21

[AreaOfEffect]

I haven't examined the mod in great detail, however, I've recently signed on to play a game using Conceptual Balance. Playing Mictlan I've noticed that the price of my slingers have changed.

Though I understand that most slingers are made to cost less gold, Mictlan's slingers are better stat-wise then the average slinger. Their stats are average all around. A solidly average unit should cost 10 gold plus or minus any racial advantage. The racial advantage for Mictlan is forest survival and an already cheap cost. (The solidly average troops of Mictlan are 9 gold.)

Making the slingers even cheaper seems to me to break the standard. Gold pays for the experience of the soldier and resource pays for their gear. That said, the fact they are slingers are expressed in their cheap resource cost, not their gold cost.

Though this objection calls for me to be put at a disadvantage, especially since I plan on using slingers in my strategy, I think they are unfairly priced in this mod. The Mictlan slinger can beat the daylights out of a normal slinger any day. They have the attack value, the defense value, the moral score, the encumbrance, and the movement of a soldier, therefore, I think they should be priced as a soldier with the standard Mictlan racial advantage of 9 gold.

I'm of course willing to here the reasoning for this change before I determine this to be my final opinion.

[quantum_mechani]

Well, if you want the short answer, it's because Mictlan's sacred troops so far outclass all their other options.

The more thematic explanation is that I've increased Mictlan'a racial advantage, with respect to normal troops prices, to cost only 7 gold by default. Perhaps this could be seen as a drastic step, but I have yet to hear anyone complain about Mictlan being more terrifying with slingers than jaguar warriors.

[AreaOfEffect]

Well, then the costs are inconsistent. Only the armor-less slingers are 7 gold. The armored slingers are 8 gold and the other solidly average troops are still 9 gold. Yet for all of these troops the stats on the soldier are identical, only the gear changes.

[quantum_mechani]

You bring up an issue that I've been struggling with since creating CB, and to be honest I'm rather relieved I'm not the only one bothered by it. 95% of people just don't care how costs are arrived at so long as it's balanced in the end. But I certainly agree I'd rather have a tidy set of rules to reach such a balanced state.

Unfortunately, it's not always easy to this just with equipment rec costs, given some combinations of equipment are so much better than others. And, besides, it makes some sense some equipment is easier to train people in than others. So, I have used some gold cost guidelines which I'll be the first to admit have been far from universally adopted across the game.

1. Troops with one single handed weapon and no shield are 1 gold cheaper.
2. Troops with only short spears and maces have 1 gold cheaper.
3. Troops that don't have to be trained to fight in armor (2 enc or more) are 1 gold cheaper.

This is actually the more general rule, rather than adjusting the Mictlan racial advantage. I agree the current Mictlan setup does not quite fit this metric either, it could use some more tweaking. In the end however, such tiny changes are more aesthetic than anything else.

[Horst F. JENS]

Is a new version of the mod planned to reflect the changes of the 1.17 patch ?

[Sombre]

Couple of things I just noticed playing as Bogarus.

The Grid Druzhina are missing their composite bows and have lances instead, something not present on their graphic. Meanwhile the elite cavalry one step up from them have lost their lances and gained composite bows. Clearly just a mistake.

Also I'm not seeing the value of the Kalendologists. They are beaten as researchers by basically every other mage Bogarus has and the Names have the fortune telling bonus they do, while being far more likely to be kept in key provinces researching. The Names are also strictly better casting mages for only being 133% of the price. The Astrapelagist meanwhile is similar but lacks fortune telling and gains an extra magic pick - it's A2S1 instead of S2, so probably about the same as battle mages. I can see the use of the Astrapelagist because they have air and can communion up, but the Kalendologist is totally outclassed by the Names, less of a good deal than the occultist and Astra,... I'm not sure what the point of it is.

[quantum_mechani]

Horst: Yes.

Sombre: The cavalry thing is on the fix list. I had also noticed the lack of a niche for that s2 mage, but I have not yet come up with a thematic change.

[Sombre]

Couple more little issues.

The Knight Commander unit #23 has hoof when he should have warhorse hoof.

I still believe the Great Bear unit got via sloth of bears and summon animals needs a bite attack. He currently just has claw and with att 9 rarely hits much - Bears can obviously attack with their claws and bite and are known as extremely fearsome animals, so for me it makes total sense for them to have this second attack. There are plenty of similar creatures who get two attacks in this way.

For MA Shinuyama, Bakemono Shamans which are H1 + 1 random EFWD I believe,.. cost 90 gold? Seems a bit pricey. I know they are stealthy bakemono leaders with 40 leadership but they only have 2RP so even with magic 3 they aren't optimal researchers really. I basically don't build them.

Also the Bakemono scout has 40 leadership. This is actually very useful because otherwise you don't have a leader with forest and mountain survival and stealth to lead your little bakemono around,... but I'm not sure if it's intentional. He costs a mere 25 gold.

I could go on a bit about some of the national summons for Shinuyama, but I believe I've already done that. They aren't exactly a great deal currently.

Finally on the Bakemono theme,..I know I say this every time but WHY ARE BAKEMONO SIZE 2? They are so clearly size 1 units that it hurts my brain to try and think of KOs reasoning for them being size 2. The tiny little oni are the same size and those are size 1. Vaetti are the same size, have similar equipment/role/genetics,.. and they are size 1. Clockwork horrors are size 1. Hoburgs are size 1. I just don't get it.