Thoughts on balancing MA Oceania

[quantum_mechani]

I don't find MA Oceania that weak, underwater at least. Above water, I agree they have more trouble than any other water nation.

The two strengths they really have to play to are easy searching for kelp forests, and their 2 resource super-tritons. With a bit of luck this can result in a turbo-start they can coast on for quite a while.

[Meglobob]

Evilhomer played Ma Oceania in a MP I was in and thrashed everybody. In the late game he had Seraphs, hordes of iron dragons and tarrasques. He had more gems than the gnomes of Zurich and they have alot of gems.

This was down to Ma and Ea Oceanias main late game strengh, clamming, they can use it to overwhealm the world and reach godhood.

Your main problem Baalz is clamming in Kingmaker has been utterly nerfed, thus destroying Ea & Ma Oceanias late game completely.

There is no way I would play Ea & Ma Oceania in any game where clamming has been nerfed, as it destroys those 2 nations.

[Xietor]

EH also played MA Oceania in Fallacy, and that did not work out so well. Though again, with a clam nerf mod. But with clam nerf mods on the rise, should a race be solely dependent on them for survival past the early game?

[Baalz]

Well, I get the impression that EH would support my premise rather than refuting it. Dominions has enough of a random element that even a weak player (which EH is not) can start next to an even weaker player, and another who stales a lot and another who is already fighting on three fronts and before you know it stumble into a win even with good players on the map. I guess my point is, the fact that somebody won with them once doesn't really mean too much.

@QM: Yes, the kelp fortress is a nice boon (if you don't also happen to be playing with very difficult research. :/ ), and they've got a couple decent options for fairly rapid expansion against indies. The problem is, what then? And it doesn't start when they try to leave the water, it starts as soon as any amount of research is done. Even if you luck into a couple kelp fortresses very early and leverage it into a redneck rush I can't see you having any chance against the second nation you fight with, assuming reasonable skill levels all around. You've just got nothing to back up your troops (which while not terrible, aren't great), and not even anything to look forward to as research progresses. If you consider the situation out of water this goes from terrible to absolutely ridiculous.

@Xietor and Meglobob: clam nerfs do hurt Oceana, but I think that's a bit of a secondary issue. I don't even think Oceana is a particularly good clam hoarder. With just a little bit of work (or a little bit of luck) any nation can scrape together a couple clam forgers which is all you generally need to exhaust your water income. Oceana can't even forge hammers.

The thing is, even without the clam nerf you've got to survive quite a long time before clamming can give enough income to be a central facet to your power in a totally non-astral nation. Yeah, chain wishing is nice, but clams don't really do too terrible much for you up until that point.

[quantum_mechani]

Baalz said:

@QM: Yes, the kelp fortress is a nice boon (if you don't also happen to be playing with very difficult research. :/ ), and they've got a couple decent options for fairly rapid expansion against indies. The problem is, what then? And it doesn't start when they try to leave the water, it starts as soon as any amount of research is done. Even if you luck into a couple kelp fortresses very early and leverage it into a redneck rush I can't see you having any chance against the second nation you fight with, assuming reasonable skill levels all around. You've just got nothing to back up your troops (which while not terrible, aren't great), and not even anything to look forward to as research progresses. If you consider the situation out of water this goes from terrible to absolutely ridiculous.

As far as underwater combat, your mages can hold their own. I mean, you can do shark attacks, foul vapors, charm, living water and water strike in a pinch. I agree getting far above water takes a rather large component of luck.

[Xietor]

Clam nerfs were put in with the Ryleh in mind, not Oceania. Oceania just gets some of the effect.

[Zeldor]

You can Charm like crazy if land nation tries to invade you.

But if you ask me I don't like underwater combat at all. My solution would be to make underwater stronger but also entering water easier. Especialyl for nations that have bad access to water/air forgers.

[Amhazair]

Meglobob said:
Evilhomer played Ma Oceania in a MP I was in and thrashed everybody. In the late game he had Seraphs, hordes of iron dragons and tarrasques. He had more gems than the gnomes of Zurich and they have alot of gems.

While this is absolutely true (I was the main beneficiary of said seraphs, dragons and tarrasques ) EH was served by circumstances. (quite apart from being a top notch player of course. ) He got an ally to help him defeat the only other water nation, and was then left alone for half an eternity with several globals running (don't remember which ones, no nexus until very late at least, but he might have had the forge up. If not at least a couple of gem producers. ) while the other strong nations duked it out in a massive mellee in the middle of the map.

I haven't tried to make MA Oceania work myself, but on paper it looks like I have to agree with Baalz. They do seem to have a better shot at land expansion against indies/weak or half defeated players than many other water nations, but apart from that? I don't see any real strenghts to take advantage of. (and having played EA Oceania myself in the last megagame, I do agree that the oceania don't really have much of an advantage on the clamming field either. )

[Wrana]

Considering Ichtycentaurs - it would probably be more thematic to give them tail attack instead of hoof. Stats could be the same or little better. I don't remember whether berserk is thematic for them (probably no), but they could get more Protection, being covered with scales, not horseskin.

[Baalz]

So, the more I play with these guys, the more they confirm my initial impression. I just don't understand how anybody could play these guys competitively without counting on extreme luck of the non-scale variety. If you do it right you can get a very impressive initial expansion. You've got *nothing* to take out elite troops though - which of course you'll be facing just as soon as the indies are gone.

quantum_mechani said:
The two strengths they really have to play to are easy searching for kelp forests, and their 2 resource super-tritons. With a bit of luck this can result in a turbo-start they can coast on for quite a while.

The kelp forests are nice, and they help you with your fast expansion against the indies. Even with an *overwhelming* economic and production advantage though you've got not a single effective thing to spend it on once you start fighting another nation. Super triton are above par as far as low resource chaff goes (not *great*) - but low resource chaff will never win all by itself unless your opponent is asleep at the wheel. Similarly, none of your other recruitable troops will take out : high protection troops, high defense troops, enemy chaff (quickly enough to get to the mages), high damage dealing troops....elite troops of any kind or enemy mages will slaughter you, and you've got absolutely nothing to counter with even if you know exactly what your enemy will be fielding.

quantum_mechani said:
As far as underwater combat, your mages can hold their own. I mean, you can do shark attacks, foul vapors, charm, living water and water strike in a pinch. I agree getting far above water takes a rather large component of luck.

Shark attack - as anyone you'll be fighting can cast the same thing, I don't see this is really any advantage outside of fighting off invasions by land races (the very least of your worries). This is, of course assuming you can even get to conj-5 before you're crushed. Additionally, this spell has been recently nerfed.

Foul vapors - with no poison immune or even resistant forces, no thugs (recruitable or summonable), and no battlefield summons (other than water elementals - a total gem sink for general purpose use) I fail to see how this can be leveraged outside of tiny niches. Underwater troops tend to have higher hps, making it pretty difficult even to use this as a hit and run.

Charm & Living water - I have to laugh a bit at the thought of living long enough to use cross school level 7/8 spells as the first effective thing your mages can do. Even at that, both are niche spells at the point in the game where people start laying down fog warriors or firestorm.

Water strike - Ummmmm, maybe CBM changes this spell, but 13 damage to a single target is called a spear, not a mage. I can't imagine any situation that this spell would have any noticeable effect on the battle even with a large number of mages.

I maintain my assertion, you've got no viable combat spells combined with no elite troops. That's *before* you try climbing out the water where your useless mages are further crippled and you can only recruit indie troops. Clam hoarding is a red herring even if you can live long enough to make it worthwhile, and you've got nothing significant to even look forward to up the research tree.