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  #1  
Old May 10th, 2002, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

Quote:
Originally posted by PvK:
Is that a suggestion that the Terrans should be categorized as genocidal?
Yes and No. If we could do it to ourselves, then most certainly we will do it to alliens. Since we are so far the only known sentient species in Universe, our bloodthirsty history is by default the galactic standard. Thus, given that human race is most certainly capable of aforementioned acts, it either does not classify us as genocidal race or genocidal behaviour is a trademark of advanced intellect. In either case, Proportion' *_AI_strategies.txt should be modified to include

Don't fire on planets := False
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Old May 10th, 2002, 03:45 AM
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Default Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

I don't think I agree, although I suppose it's up for interpretation. You're of course free to mod out things you don't agree with, as always.

In this case, I suppose it is possible to interpret the destruction of planetary population by ship bombardment as "merely" the causing of so much damage that the civilized space age assets there are merely un-useful to their parent empire. That argument has some merit - it may be that "glassing" a planet is just making it effectively need to be rebuilt, rather than necessarily killing all of the millions or billions of defenseless civillians that may be there.

On the other hand, it is perhaps more easy, natural, and common, to interpret this game event literally - that it does represent wholesale extermination of civillians, perhaps even to the point of trying to kill them all or, to use the usual expression on this forum, "glassing" the planet.

The USAF's attacks that levelled German and Japanese cities in World War II were amazingly horrible and killed massive numbers of civillians, but they did not exterminate everyone. In SE4 terms, this could be seen as either literally destroying everything and everyone (what the AI does unless you set Target Planets to False), or as just destroying the facilities and leaving the population (which you could do manually in SE3, but I think in SE4 even a human player isn't shown how many facilities are left, so you couldn't really do that even if you wanted to in SE4, and certainly not in simultanous games where the AI leads the battles).

I don't think it's really possible to interpret the shooting off of all the population units on a planet as not involving massive numbers of massacreing civillians. The good ol' USA may have done this plenty in WW2, but a mere 60 years later, and long before real space expansion, I think the trend is definitely towards recognizing that there may be something just a wee tad evil/horrible/immoral/wrong about mass-slaughtering civillians to get a military advantage.

Anyway, I like to hold out hope that many otherworldly races, and even our depraved species, once they are so advanced that they spread into space, will have developed at least a modicum of morality in these terms.

Moreover, I generally leave Target Planets = True for the Capture Planet strategy, and if this strategy reaches a planet but forgot to bring troops, or other such accidents, the AI will go massacreing civillians anyway. For the most merciful races, I may even leave their "Capture Planet" strat set to not target planets, though then their AI will need to be tweaked so it has some chance of dropping troops without always getting annihilated by weapon platforms.

All of this brings up the other main reason why I set this to false in most cases, which is so that ground combat will be more a part of the game. If the AI would just show up and lay waste to planets from orbit, there would be much less ground combat. Given how long it takes (and how expensive it is) to develop a colony in Proportions, this is also, I would think, something of a practical advantage - if the AI conquers enemy colonies rather than bLasting them, it will gain a lot more. Even without transports, though, it may be useful for the AI to sit on enemy planets without attacking - blockading them without getting their ships creamed by the planetary defenses (maybe).

Of course, the AI is needing quite a few tweaks still, including getting more invasion transports out there.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

PvK
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Old May 10th, 2002, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

Optimal solution would be to have a special target priority "weapon platforms". It has been suggested several times before but, alas, MM did't implemented it.

It is possible to check during tactical combat how many facilities left on planet: right-click on planet than select "facilities".

It would be nice to transfer TDM Orks or Space Vikings AI. They like to capture planets ! Very nicely done races.

Another issue: AI does not put enough point defence. This is because point defence beams are Last in the list of poin-defence weapons and hence AI always select it. Point-defence beams are superior in acurace, but puny damage values makes current AI ships completely defenseless. I suggest to swap the order of point-defence cannons and point-defence beams in components.txt
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Old May 10th, 2002, 04:46 AM
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Default Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

Yep yep yep.

I whined for a long time to MM about adding "Planet - Unarmed" to don't fire on types, too.

You're probably right, I think, about the suggestion for order of PD weapons. The AI ship designs can be hugely improved - John Sullivan and I have been tweaking them a lot lately for 2.3.

PvK
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Old May 10th, 2002, 02:26 PM

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Default Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

PVK,

Quote:
Originally posted by oleg:
Another issue: AI does not put enough point defence.....
I will second this. Although home worlds are difficult to attack with direct fire weapons, building ships with just Capital Missles is the most effective way of preparing a Homeworld for ground assault. They can easily stay out of range of even Heavy/Massive Mounted weapons and wittle the planet's troops down (which absorb tons of Damage). If they could build a Weapons platform that had PD components on them it would be all the more difficult and costly to take.

Also this may exist and I don't see it, but what if there was a shield generating component that could be put on a weapon platform that added to the shields of the planet. Then non-homeworlds would not be so naked to these attacks as well....

two cents more...
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Old May 10th, 2002, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

Ok, there shall be more PD from the AI. I had some WP's with PD included, I thought, but I guess either they're using PD beams, or haven't researched PD by the time you attack them, or something. If I tag the self-defense cannon for the AI to find, it should be pretty easy to get the AI to make its homeworlds rather missile resistant.

I don't think it's possible to put planet-wide shields on WP's. I could try to use the Planet - Shield ability, but it's not phased (the phased ability used on facilties is the unit component ability).

However, if Gold 1.67 is like Pre-Gold 1.49, then I think the lowest-hitpoint units on planets tend to get hit first, and before population and facilities, meaning that small WP's with cheap defense components can be used to "protect" most units.

What I should probably do, though, is add a string of planetary shield generator facilities to the standard tech tree (making the ancient tech just out-perform it for a greater investment).

Note too that all of the cultural facilities include phased shield gen to represent the difficulty of destroying these, and the added potential to shelter units on planets with these.

On homeworlds, it takes a pretty large and sustained firepower just to get through the CC "shields".

PvK
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Old May 10th, 2002, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Proportions mod Version 2.2 released

Quote:
I don't think it's possible to put planet-wide shields on WP's. I could try to use the Planet - Shield ability, but it's not phased (the phased ability used on facilties is the unit component ability).
My understanding is that the WP must all be destroyed before damage is applied to any of the facilities. If this is true then any shields on WP are equivalent to planetary shields... I think
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