The Bogarus Problem

[JimMorrison]

That's anecdotal - a single case with not even detailed analysis of the position. I mean I am sure at the time you didn't sit down and think through his build, and check out every one of his provinces - nor interview the populace of his provinces to discover if he had to face any particularly nasty indies, or had barbarians attack his castle, or god knows what constitutes "didn't make any mistakes", which is a hell of a claim.

I must say I find it amusing that it's scoffed at to use diplomacy as your early game strat anyways. Supposing it is one of your best options as Bogarus, so? It's really not THAT often that you start next to an instant rusher, that's for sure. Even when you do, to be on someone's capital so soon, often means that person mobilized against the first person that their scouts found - at most the second. So that person is not looking for Bogarus, they're just looking for a province with a castle in it, and there's a good chance they didn't even see your awake pretender if you have one - if you're expanding the other direction.

I really don't think it's fair, until there is statistical evidence (like a Bogarus win using *any* strat), for anyone to imply their strat is competitive, and another is not.

[Renojustin]

-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.

-People don't have to use diplomacy with or against Bogarus, because the best and most sure way to power is by conquering the easy target. Which Bogarus certainly is in early game, especially without an awake pretender.

[JimMorrison]

Renojustin said:
-How is it not anecdotal if Bogarus wins, but it is anecdotal if Bogarus loses? Both provide data. You can't have it both ways.

Because as of today, 100% of awake SCs, and 100% of imprisoned scales/magic pretenders have met with failure in MP games.

Until you can substantiate a particular strategy as being victorious (sorry Kuritza, not my intent to be rude), then there all of our evidence leads to loss of the game so far. 100% results are not anecdotal.

[Micah]

K- Seriously, no matter how many times you say it taking an SC pretender does not in fact hurt your gold or (generally) even resource availability in the first year.

Your statement that the 6 starets that you start buying on turn 7 after getting exarchs will somehow make up for not having 12 starets by starting to buy them on turn 1 is also nonsensical.

Exarchs can't have bodyguards without additional equipment. Having enough research, gems and forge turns to have teleport, battle magic and a fleet of flying carpets on turn 17 after you recruit 6 exarchs to start seems unlikely.

There's nothing at all stopping you from getting some smiters when you have an SC if you have to, but passing up starets for exarchs is a pretty short-term strategy given the amazing research potential of the starets.

Jim- Given the lack of evidence I'm gonna have to go with the opinions of MP vets that have some wins under their belt until some other strat proves effective in a competitive MP setting. Let me know when you substantiate your claims of scalemonsters being the way to go.

[JimMorrison]

Micah said:
Jim- Given the lack of evidence I'm gonna have to go with the opinions of MP vets that have some wins under their belt until some other strat proves effective in a competitive MP setting. Let me know when you substantiate your claims of scalemonsters being the way to go.

I'm not proposing one strategy is significantly better than another. I am simply arguing that there is no concrete evidence that one strategy is significantly better than another. They all have their weaknesses, which I think I have shown adequately. Obviously if you want to take my assertions as claims that an awake SC is an invalid strat, then you are free to denounce me as not experienced enough to take part in the discussion - but to do so, is simply to sidestep what I am even trying to express.

[Ming]

Micah,

You have beaten me in stating most of my points and put it far more succinctly than I could have.

[Kuritza]

Consider this...by spending first 6 turns on recruiting OLD, 0-leadership smiters not only do you handicap your research significantly, but also dont search your lands for magic sites, compromising your endgame viability even further.
And Jim - I know its just my word, but at least you can consider it.
Dom 10 Wyrm, W3E3, drain 2, dont remember the rest. Research to enchantment 1 for breath of winter (simply a must), alt 2 for quicken self, conj 3 for earthpower, alt 3 for ironskin also helps, constr 4 for some items. Later on such pretender can search for magic sites normally invisible to Bogarus and summon Beregini with Nature picks (they can also forge clams). Once empowered with Blood he summons Ice Devils, Father Illearth and forges Bloodstones. Maybe not the best start possible, but at least its relatively safe and offers some lategame diversification.
What I really missed is nature 4 bless, of course... cant have it all.

[Renojustin]

Drain 2 seems like a very solid choice given Bogarus's high-powered researchers.

[K]

Kuritza said:
Consider this...by spending first 6 turns on recruiting OLD, 0-leadership smiters not only do you handicap your research significantly, but also dont search your lands for magic sites, compromising your endgame viability even further.

But you do search your provinces. You just do it six turns later....and that causes you to lose how many gems?

I estimate that is probably costs a total of 80 gems of maybe four types. This seems like a lot, but it really isn't by endgame standards (and in early game it's not like you have anything good to spend it on).

[K]

Micah said:
K- Seriously, no matter how many times you say it taking an SC pretender does not in fact hurt your gold or (generally) even resource availability in the first year.

Uh, so an Awake SC God is worth what.... maybe one province a turn for 10 turns before you hit serious opposition? So, if you can make an extra army early who is capable of doing that, then the effect is exact same.

Seriously, the Smiter strategy works as well as having an SC but you don't have to kill your longterm game to do it. I don't know why people resist the idea.

Micah said:
Your statement that the 6 starets that you start buying on turn 7 after getting exarchs will somehow make up for not having 12 starets by starting to buy them on turn 1 is also nonsensical.

Starets are pretty expensive. With your bad scales and SC god, you won't be able to afford them for long.

SC gods are a short-term strategy, but good scales pay off in both the short term and the long.

Micah said:
Exarchs can't have bodyguards without additional equipment. Having enough research, gems and forge turns to have teleport, battle magic and a fleet of flying carpets on turn 17 after you recruit 6 exarchs to start seems unlikely.

There's nothing at all stopping you from getting some smiters when you have an SC if you have to, but passing up starets for exarchs is a pretty short-term strategy given the amazing research potential of the starets.

Great research means nothing if you don't have the troops to protect your mages. Good scales provide troops, and an SC God is just an investment that ends the instant that someone drops a Thaum 4 Vengeance of the Dead onto him or gets a Fear-based Assassin to cause him to route during an Assassination attempt.

Lets not also forget that a big research bulge and small army bulge makes you a target for other players.

And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus? Seriously? Maybe you won't have the gems and need to go cheap with Boots of Flying so that your eparch gets mapmove 2, but the ability to do it is unquestioned. Run a quick test and see for yourself how easy it can be.