OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

In fact, they -increase- spending.

Of course, there are some who would argue that increasing wages is not indicative of a growing economy..... though, they are the same people who claim that providing tax breaks to the rich bolsters the economy, and leads to higher wages.

Providing tax breaks to the rich won't bolster the economy or provide higher wages. Increasing minimum wage has not improved the lives of those working minimum wage as the rest of the market adjusts upwards as well... the $1 menu's from fast food restaurants have been disappearing as a result. Another bad side effect of increasing minimum wage is other businesses don't match the increase... thus if you're earning $6.25/HR and minimum wage is increased from $5.00 to $6.15 you're out of luck and closer to the poverty level.

Originally Posted by JimMorrison

I think these figures are a bit misleading though. I'd venture to guess that under the Republicans, the top 5% does better than the NYT table shows, but through deregulation and tax loopholes, are more able to hide their income, during those administrations. :P Then when a Democrat takes office, they add some regulation back in, forcing the rich to declare more of their income.....

Bill Gates found a way to pay zero in taxes for 1999 so those Democrats do a terrible job getting him and others at his level to pay taxes. If the Democrats were serious about improving the tax system they would attack the existing loopholes.

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Providing tax breaks to the rich won't bolster the economy or provide higher wages. Increasing minimum wage has not improved the lives of those working minimum wage as the rest of the market adjusts upwards as well... the $1 menu's from fast food restaurants have been disappearing as a result. Another bad side effect of increasing minimum wage is other businesses don't match the increase... thus if you're earning $6.25/HR and minimum wage is increased from $5.00 to $6.15 you're out of luck and closer to the poverty level.

I'm pretty sure that you're well aware that the purchasing power of "minimum wage" has been eroding for decades now?

That is to say, that we are not keeping pace with the cost of living. Not only that, but as you point out, many middle-wage jobs don't even see the corresponding increase, thus we experience the phenomenon of a shrinking middle class, and more people at or below poverty level.

But poverty, is a mutable point. If I were to pay 100% taxes, but have a decent place to live, healthful food on my plate, and an ID card that let me into movies, and let me pick up a few luxuries here and there, why would I complain? People ultimately complain about taxes because of how little they see in return.

Our approach to taxation and spending is entirely backwards for this day and age - and the lack of serious accountability ruins our government's chances of success.

[Agema]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Providing tax breaks to the rich won't bolster the economy or provide higher wages. Increasing minimum wage has not improved the lives of those working minimum wage as the rest of the market adjusts upwards as well... the $1 menu's from fast food restaurants have been disappearing as a result. Another bad side effect of increasing minimum wage is other businesses don't match the increase... thus if you're earning $6.25/HR and minimum wage is increased from $5.00 to $6.15 you're out of luck and closer to the poverty level.

There's just no way on earth that paying the very poor another 20% is bad for them. Yes, technically it shifts the median wage upwards and statistically takes more people into poverty. But if another family goes from just above the poverty line to just below it because the extremely poor got a pay raise, it makes pretty much no difference to their household finances.

The market cannot shift that far up either. To counteract a minimum wage increase from $5.00-6.15 dollars would take inflation of 20% suddenly occurring. Bear in mind the rest of the population towards the middle class don't see pay rises when minimum wage is increased, so although wage rises are inflationary, the overall inflation is a tiny fraction of the wage increase for the minimum wage.

Also, when you say other businesses don't match the increase, I don't think you're right by the requirements of basic economics. Companies pay more because they need to attract better staff. When minimum wage goes up, if they want to keep attracting those better non-minimum wage staff they have to raise their wages. This will send ripples outwards increasing wages.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Agema

There's just no way on earth that paying the very poor another 20% is bad for them. Yes, technically it shifts the median wage upwards and statistically takes more people into poverty. But if another family goes from just above the poverty line to just below it because the extremely poor got a pay raise, it makes pretty much no difference to their household finances.

The market cannot shift that far up either. To counteract a minimum wage increase from $5.00-6.15 dollars would take inflation of 20% suddenly occurring. Bear in mind the rest of the population towards the middle class don't see pay rises when minimum wage is increased, so although wage rises are inflationary, the overall inflation is a tiny fraction of the wage increase for the minimum wage.

Also, when you say other businesses don't match the increase, I don't think you're right by the requirements of basic economics. Companies pay more because they need to attract better staff. When minimum wage goes up, if they want to keep attracting those better non-minimum wage staff they have to raise their wages. This will send ripples outwards increasing wages.

It also causes unemployment, as businesses evaluate costs vs production. One computer > 10 low paid accountants.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by Agema

There's just no way on earth that paying the very poor another 20% is bad for them. Yes, technically it shifts the median wage upwards and statistically takes more people into poverty. But if another family goes from just above the poverty line to just below it because the extremely poor got a pay raise, it makes pretty much no difference to their household finances.

It's not bad for the very poor it provides the very poor a short term benefit, but it's bad for the working class just above them. When minimum wage increases the vast majority of those small businesses either cut staff and make the remaining staff work harder or raise the prices for food/services provided.
The family above the poverty line which is pushed closer to minimum wage DOES suffer because of the adjustment businesses must make. When I was a teenager I worked in the fast food restaurant and recognized the owner had no choice except to raise prices every time minimum wage increased. One example is our grocery stores with employees earning minimum wage (not the cashiers)... as minimum wage increases the grocery stores balance the increase by raising food prices. There's plenty of articles describing the long term effects of raising minimum wage.

Originally Posted by Agema

Also, when you say other businesses don't match the increase, I don't think you're right by the requirements of basic economics. Companies pay more because they need to attract better staff. When minimum wage goes up, if they want to keep attracting those better non-minimum wage staff they have to raise their wages. This will send ripples outwards increasing wages.

In the majority of cases these other businesses do not match the increase of minimum wage. I've never met anyone such as friend, relative, coworkers who reported receiving a raise because minimum wage increased... unless they were at minimum wage. Simply walk around and ask the employees at small businesses and you'll see. Also the more minimum wage increases the more companies will consider sending call center job overseas!

[lch]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Bill Gates found a way to pay zero in taxes for 1999

Since I couldn't find any indication of this the first time I looked around, I did it again. It turns out that Microsoft paid zero federal taxes in 1999, although they had $12.3 billion U.S. income. That's because they found a loophole through international tax evasion.