Coastal Artilley

[chuckfourth]

Ships

[DRG]

Yes Ships

Naval warships to be exact. Any big ship really. You don't plink at LC's with 12 inch guns. The ships that carry the LC you would but that is beyond the scope of the game

Do you see any large naval vessels/ warships in the game ??

Answer.. no. Not the kind ships the 12 inch gun in the Difesa Costiera fort was meant to deal with. Patrol boats and the like don't count. What those guns are meant to deal with are what we class as off map targets but these are on map assets and on map assets cannot shoot at off map targets. To use the guns the way you envision they are designed to be used with all the naval RF and FC should mean these are made off map artillery to engage the naval "guns" the player doing the beach landing bought. But the game doesn't work like that. Off map guns do not use RF and FC and on map LR artillery cannot engage off map guns and there is no mechanism in the game to get into CB fire with naval guns and we have no intention of adding any.

So really those units should be pulled but I'd get more people complaining if I did. There are things in this game we have added over time because others thought it a wonderful idea to do so. Costal/River naval craft and large calibre coastal batteries are two of them I personally could have lived without. Just keep in mind those big guns wouldn't be used to fire at LC over open sights so use the smaller guns that have the AP to defend the beach against the LC and leave those big forts for decorations in sceanrios


Don

[RERomine]

Why not must pull them? You guys define the scope of game so if it's beyond that scope, that's all there is to it. The river boats could go, also, IMO. It was designed as a top down, turn based, tactical recreation of land warfare, correct? There might be rare instances where such units did were involved during the war, but was it significant enough to warrant inclusion. Even in WinSPMBT, how often did the "Brown Water Navy" get tied up in company/battalion land battles in Vietnam?

With respect to the 12in Italian guns, first would any right minded force attack where they were present without neutralizing them first? It's not like they can be hidden that well. If their intent was to engage enemy warships, transports, etc., I question whether they would be capable of being depressed low enough to even engage a landing craft. With any fortification, if it was originally intended as anti-shipping, it doesn't seem like it should be in the game.

So, Don, Andy, when are you going to draw the line and say, "This is it" and move on to the next project?

[Imp]

With respect to the 12in Italian guns, first would any right minded force attack where they were present without neutralizing them first?

The only reason I can see for there original inclusion & hence the restrictions placed on them is so scenario designers could have targets for just such purposes. Air drops on Norways coastal forts etc.
Probably as the works been done they may as well stay but agree there is no need to pamper to everyones requests if people want stuff that plays no real purpose in the game like tank transporters for a specific rare situation they can build them in the OOB editor.
Updating combat units as new info becomes available & sweeping changes like those in the recent patch are what impact on the game & I thank you for them.
The little things you have provided me the tools to implement myself

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
By all means pull the Italian 12 inch gun, but there -are- relevant (ie large) targets for it to hit in the OOBs,
the British OOB for example has these vessels
Unit 508 "Merchant Marine" size 8, probably much larger than 8.
Unit 515 "Coast guard" size 17; 5" gun, (cant find out what this is supposed to be.)
Unit 514 "Insect class" size 17; 2 * 6" guns, Length : 72 m Width : 11 m
Unit 513"Patrol boat" size 12; 4" gun, (armed trawler?) Length : 45 m Width : 7 m
from
http://members.lycos.co.uk/Indochine...boats.html#LCG

Unit 102 "LCG (M)(1)25lbr" size 12; 2 * 25 pdrs, Length : 47.08 m Width : 6.91 m
Unit 103 "LCG (M)(1)17lbr" size 12; 2 * 17pdrs, Length : 47.08 m Width : 6.91 m
Unit 101 "LC(R)" size 6; 160 4.6" rockets, (Length : 47.08 m Width : 6.91 m?) (should maybe be size 12 also?)
As a comparison in the USA OOB
Unit 745 "LCM" size 6 (USA) Length : 13.6 m Width : 4.27 m
seems to have the correct picture and looks a big enough target for a 12 inch gun, to me anyway, and is a lot smaller than the example vessels in the british OOB.

I understand your reasoning but as the coastal artillery cant fire at the battleships ect, wouldnt it be reasonable that they plink away at these sizable targets instead? I mean if you think the landing force is going to have your guts for garters then maybe you would be tempted to shoot even at those small but very slow very thin shelled landing craft, maybe you could put short fuses in your shells and get them to explode rather than just leave a big hole.
But thats the 12 inch gun.
What about coastal guns like the jap 150mm and german 170mm? surely these would be happy to shoot at landing craft?

All the small coastal guns are impudent because without AP shells British units like 515, 514, 513, 102 and 103 seriously outgun them, which is the reverse of reality. I dont know about the german 170mm but I imagine some of the Jap 150mm saw action.
So really -all- the coastal guns whithout AP rounds are just senario decorations and should be pulled.
From
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=72
"At about 0900 in the morning of 20 Nov 1943, Marines boarded the Higgins landing crafts and started for Betio. At 0441, the Japanese coastal guns opened fire"
So would it be possible to give the smaller coastal guns their AP? After all they are largely ex naval ordinance and do have AP rounds.
Best Regards Chuck.