Need opinions on MA Nation power

[Huzurdaddi]

I don't understand the love for Pythium.

Their infantry is solid: good morale, decent weapons, nice shield, decent training. This has not changed from Dom2 where Pythium was a real power.

What has changed is their magic power. Both of their combat mages are now old and their capital only mage is very old. This is somewhat limiting. Further, Pythium's greatest trick was communions. However communions are far more difficult to pull of in Dom3 as you have far fewer castles to recruit mages (and relief is no where near as powerful as before).

However, overall, MA is, IMO, the best balanced of the ages.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Huzurdaddi

I don't understand the love for Pythium.

Their infantry is solid: good morale, decent weapons, nice shield, decent training. This has not changed from Dom2 where Pythium was a real power.

What has changed is their magic power. Both of their combat mages are now old and their capital only mage is very old. This is somewhat limiting. Further, Pythium's greatest trick was communions. However communions are far more difficult to pull of in Dom3 as you have far fewer castles to recruit mages (and relief is no where near as powerful as before).

However, overall, MA is, IMO, the best balanced of the ages.

Pythium has a number of big boosts from dom2, though old age is a problem. The biggest boost is the angelic summons, which use the huge astral income Pythium had a very hard time leveraging until late game in dom2. Then there are the hydras boosts.

Some more subtle effects have also helped them out. Nerfing the magic scale and boosting gold income means they can afford to pump a theurg elder every turn, giving them a quite the comparative research edge.

Also, growth scale plus some astral healing field trips can save all but a very few mages from old age.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Also, growth scale plus some astral healing field trips can save all but a very few mages from old age.

Excuse me for going OT, but do I read this right, ie that Astral Healing remove old age afflictions? If so, then that is something I *relly* wish I had known before

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Excuse me for going OT, but do I read this right, ie that Astral Healing remove old age afflictions? If so, then that is something I *relly* wish I had known before

Astral healing doesn't remove old age afflictions, but can restore the health of your mages back to maximum.

Hence you can use the mages until the eventual old age disease gives them feeblemind.

[Huzurdaddi]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Pythium has a number of big boosts from dom2, though old age is a problem. The biggest boost is the angelic summons, which use the huge astral income Pythium had a very hard time leveraging until late game in dom2. Then there are the hydras boosts.

Some more subtle effects have also helped them out. Nerfing the magic scale and boosting gold income means they can afford to pump a theurg elder every turn, giving them a quite the comparative research edge.

Also, growth scale plus some astral healing field trips can save all but a very few mages from old age.

You seem to be cherry picking here, and over stating the effect of some of the boosts Pythium has gotten.

1. The really useful angelic summons were already in Dom2 (although I do not recall if their stats were as good, IIRC, the harbinger, the real workhorse got his air boosted from 2 to 3 which is very nice).

2. Whether the hydra modification was a boon or a bane is an open question (it really depends upon the foes, mundane troops do far better against the new hydras, save-or-die spells much worse).

3. The ability of pump more Arch Theurgs (although I like calling them elder theurg's just due to their very substantial old age) is an interesting advantage. While they are not efficient researchers it is true that there are few 9RP/turn mages in the world. I do think this is a very thin advantage unless you are relying on a one to two turn advantage to getting that all important buff for your SC.

4. As for astral healing, that is a comical and expensive, way to deal with old age. Comical in that all old age mages get teleported to the front lines. However, expensive in that you would figure that 3 gems on the ubiquitous shroud would be better spent (note: you do not have the gems for hammers, so it could cost 5, which is pricey).

I did not even go into the subtle changes which have affected Pythium. The one that leaps to mind is the change to quickness. While this affected a good number of nation it was a massive nerf to those nations (it was justified in my mind, but still it must be considered when comparing Dom2 to Dom3 nations).

Anyway, I think that the love for Pythium (my Dom2 favorite, or at least one of my Dom2 favorites!) is a holdover from the old days when they were one of the elite nations.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Huzurdaddi

You seem to be cherry picking here, and over stating the effect of some of the boosts Pythium has gotten.

1. The really useful angelic summons were already in Dom2 (although I do not recall if their stats were as good, IIRC, the harbinger, the real workhorse got his air boosted from 2 to 3 which is very nice).

2. Whether the hydra modification was a boon or a bane is an open question (it really depends upon the foes, mundane troops do far better against the new hydras, save-or-die spells much worse).

3. The ability of pump more Arch Theurgs (although I like calling them elder theurg's just due to their very substantial old age) is an interesting advantage. While they are not efficient researchers it is true that there are few 9RP/turn mages in the world. I do think this is a very thin advantage unless you are relying on a one to two turn advantage to getting that all important buff for your SC.

4. As for astral healing, that is a comical and expensive, way to deal with old age. Comical in that all old age mages get teleported to the front lines. However, expensive in that you would figure that 3 gems on the ubiquitous shroud would be better spent (note: you do not have the gems for hammers, so it could cost 5, which is pricey).

I did not even go into the subtle changes which have affected Pythium. The one that leaps to mind is the change to quickness. While this affected a good number of nation it was a massive nerf to those nations (it was justified in my mind, but still it must be considered when comparing Dom2 to Dom3 nations).

Anyway, I think that the love for Pythium (my Dom2 favorite, or at least one of my Dom2 favorites!) is a holdover from the old days when they were one of the elite nations.

Many of the angelic summons were already there in dom2... but not only did they get boosted but now Pythium is one of the few nations that have access to them.

It's true the hydras changes can be debated, but having them somewhat worse vs normal troops (which they are still quite a good against) in exchange for making most counters to them extremely difficult is seems a more than fair trade.

The astral healing trick is only a big expense if you don't take into account how useful they are on the front lines anyway. Anyway, it's kind of overblown how big a deal old age is, with growth 3 you end up with only 1-2 diseased arch theurgs out of 12.

Oh and I forgot one of the largest boosts, shield mechanics were totally redone, making Pythium's tower shields a near immunity to arrows.

I actually doubt much Pythium love is a holdover... as has been said their win record kind of speaks for iteslf.