Scouting/Recon

[Imp]

It never ceases to amaze me how in depth people get with the game mechanics. I consider myself quite observant & watch what happens. As it turns out the human brain is a marvelous thing & when people say how does this work you realise that a basic understanding has been tucked away. You may well be right on search mechanics but for me personaly I want to understand the rudementary mechanics rather than reducing it very much to a game & taking advantage of the system underneath as this spoils the game IMHO. All to our own though but for the likes of me & simplicity moving bad, faster worse

For possible thought on your leap frog scout.
They are expensive compared to a squad & unlike a squad a 2 man team is nearly useless if it loses a man. doing this is subjecting it to danger so yes might only get one unload but at least the squad is more likely to be useful after.
I only say this because he is fast moving so fire at is dangerous & the question was how do I keep my scouts alive. I would suggest this wont help though agree on some maps you have to do something like this or make progress very slowly.
The question you should ask is will the possible loss of the unit be worth the info gained, if so its a go.
As a last point try & remember your lead units smoke status & if your vehicle has dischargers consider driving to expected contact point & poping them before unloading if no other cover is available.

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Imp

It never ceases to amaze me how in depth people get with the game mechanics. I consider myself quite observant & watch what happens. As it turns out the human brain is a marvelous thing & when people say how does this work you realise that a basic understanding has been tucked away. You may well be right on search mechanics but for me personaly I want to understand the rudementary mechanics rather than reducing it very much to a game & taking advantage of the system underneath as this spoils the game IMHO. All to our own though but for the likes of me & simplicity moving bad, faster worse

Look at it this way.
If it were real life we'd be using what works in real life.
Since it's a game we use what works in game.

Most of us try to avoid "pure" gamey stuff (bug, rule, game mechanic exploits) but we have to do what works in the game not necessarily what works in real life.

The game mechanics give a rather large bonus to spotting moving units. I can tell you from real life it's very difficult to spot a couple guys moving at all cautiously at 50m much less the 2,3, 500 the game allows for.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

The game mechanics give a rather large bonus to spotting moving units. I can tell you from real life it's very difficult to spot a couple guys moving at all cautiously at 50m much less the 2,3, 500 the game allows for.

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

When you get time you can post an example of "a couple guys ", "moving at all cautiously " that are easily spotted" at "the 2,3, 500 the game allows for" if those couple of guys don't do something dumbass like fire their weapons.

I have an example of scouts spotting the majority of the stationary enemy units after they moved towards them and only two units were spotted and fired on. One at 150 yards and one at 50 and had I had arty support I could have beaten the crap out of them and they would have had no clue where the fire was being called from and that's with a high visibility in a height 1 field not a height three tall grass

Don

Sorry, I was not meaning to imply scout (or for that matter any size 0 or 1 unit) was easily or often spotted at longer ranges, just that is does happen.

As for a test an easy one is to do an assault scenario and buy a bunch of AI controlled scout or infantry units. Set your units to fire at very short range (if at all) then just sit there and watch the AI units advance on your positions.

[Imp]

One problem with your test Suhiir, most of those leg units will get spotted because they are moving as fast as possible across open terrain. Its the movement that gives them away basic animal programing war or otherwise if it moves it could be a threat so we automatically scan that area better to confirm what we thought moved did.
Repeated DRGs point sorry

[Suhiir]

Good point about the movement speed.

However...
How often is a scenario long enough for you to be able to move that slowly?

This is another of those "game" VS "RL" issues that really has no "answer".

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Good point about the movement speed.

However...
How often is a scenario long enough for you to be able to move that slowly?

This is another of those "game" VS "RL" issues that really has no "answer".

That's a very good point. One thing that I've noticed is scenarios in WinSPMBT tend to be shorter than WinSPWW2. As such, I use scouts to cover flanks more than anything.

It could just be circumstances since my last seven WinSPMBT campaign battles have all been "meeting engagements". The last one was 16 turns long so averaging 2 hexes per turn on a 100x100 map, my scouts wouldn't even clear the area between deployment zones. My longest scenario has been 22 turns. All of them have been computer generated lengths and I don't change the lengths. I view the times as being set by my higher command and not by "right" to change. That's just my preference.

In WinSPWW2, "meeting engagements" seem to run 25 turns long and often over 30 turns. With that kind of time, I actually can use scouts for recon purposes.

It is possible to shorten distance scouts have to move by giving them a ride out some distance. Two turns riding will save a scout almost ten turns cautiously walking. You just have to be careful where the scout unloads. If it is in the open, the enemy might watch your scout move every step of the way.

[hoplitis]

Originally Posted by Imp

...
You may well be right on search mechanics but for me personaly I want to understand the rudementary mechanics rather than reducing it very much to a game & taking advantage of the system underneath as this spoils the game IMHO. All to our own though but for the likes of me & simplicity moving bad, faster worse
...

If winSPMBT was a board-game and you were sticking to the "rudimentary mechanics" and not "taking advance of the system" you would actually be playing the game (BTW it is a game eh!) without full knowledge of its rules or the intent to use them. Of course you play the game as you wish (heck it's a hobby after all) but in my book game rules are the "soul" of games. Now, the computer handles the "arithmetic" of it all and eventually, if you keep playing the game, you may develop an instinct for it, which in essence is a form of "discovering" the underlying rules. Believe me, I understand your "spirit" on the issue. But sometimes I miss a clear-cut "traditional" rulebook ... it can save you time and time can be a scarce commodity...