Mod: Warhammer Dwarfs, version 0.92 -- Quickfix

[Burnsaber]

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I think you're really underrating the effect of old age. And I'd say Ermor is close for infantry, not to mention Agartha or even much-maligned Ulm. Mages are the best humans, but I'd put near-human Marshmasters and Bakemono sorcerers as being very similar in power level. And hydras are a nice bonus, but not overpowering. Really, I see Pythium as about where most nations should be, and the other "men" nations to be somewhat lacking (although Ermor is pretty close in MA).

I guess we just disagree on what is acceptable power level. I could argue why Pythium is just plain better than all of the nations you mentioned, but it would probably be best if we just "agree to disagree" and continue on. Tangents and derails serve no one.

Originally Posted by alansmithee

But again, this is all personal philosophy, and I would just hate to see a great mod not get used because it's no fun to play due to it's weakness.

Here is the point where the issue boils down. I just don't see v0.7 dwarfs being weak. I just don't see it. Sure, you have weaknessess, but you have some insane strenghts. Forgebonus 30, superb national troops, summons that can throw 3 Thunder Strikes for 0 fatigue, summons that throw "ingnore shields" 10 AN damage with prec 15 to range 30, national anti-thug/SC chassis for fire gems, prospectors, etc...

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Yeah, I meant the lords. And this isn't a fair comparison (which I think you know), as the 500 gold also comes attached to a thug/borderline SC chassis.

Well, people don't really use them for that role (because you have Adons), just because even forgebonus 15 is seriously awesome on a mage that can reach "high level" forgings. I know that dwarfs don't have recruitable SC chassis to "feed" with their forgebonus 30, but still, there is a *lot* of scary **** you can do with them. Besides, Runelords being expensive is also a thematic consideration (In, WH there are likely about max 30 runelords remaining) and affects the King/Runelord competition for the capital commander slot.

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Now, if you want to add in a body slot so you can get rid of the armor that makes them virtually useless in combat...

Sorry, but not going to happen. Dwarfs aren't supposed to be throwing fireballs around. Anvils of Doom are the only exception.

Originally Posted by alansmithee

They're still probably worth going for IMO (since you don't really want to give up the 120 pts for drain3), but you're still gonna lag far behind. Again, it's not just the boosted cost of the smiths, it's also the boosted cost of the castles you have to get to recruit more smiths. And even considering that, they're still only second-best to the journeymen. That, coupled with their uselessness as thugs now makes them seem quite useless.

Exactly why should Runesmiths be thugs? Since when has that been a argument for comparing mages? (Master Smiths suck balls, you can't thug them!). And if Runsmiths were good thug chassises, why would you ever recruit Giant Slayers/Kings? And remember that just their upkeep/research ratio is second to Journeymen, they still, well.. do more research. If I just made them cheapest researchers, why would you ever recruit Journeymen? Now, Journeymen are the most cost-effective solution, but runesmiths give more (research)bang for your buck, ideal when you have some excess cash flow.

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Well, to paraphrase something I heard about this game before I was playing it, Ulm (and this was pre-buff when they were considered the worst nation) is a nation full of people who are strong in will, and rely on the strength of iron to overcome magic. Unfortunately there's a spell that can block out the sun. Point being, any nation that thematically sucks at magic, is gonna be at a natural disadvantage since magic is so strong.

But the thing is, Dwarfs aren't that weak in magic currently. Sure, your battlefield magic sucks (until you get anvils), but you can make that up by summons and rituals. There is also is a lot you can do with Journeymen in combat.

Originally Posted by alansmithee

And it might not be what you want to go for, but when I think of the tabletop game I always imagine rows of sturdy infantry (which is quite present) backed up by ridiculous amounts of war machines (which don't seem present at all). Now if you don't want to add war machines (I was actually thinking if possible you could have cannons with gift of the heavens or some similar effect if it's moddable since nobody seems to want to just code "gunpowder" effects) I think it's reasonable to see runecasters as being essentially war machine replacements (through judicious use of earth spells, etc) if you did get rid of the crazy armor.

See Sombre's post at the end of 5th page for some good reasons why war machines/gunpowder sucks. This mod is a conversion of the tabletop dwarf army into dom3 universe, not a straight conversion (the reasons for that are manifold, I won't start listing them here). To tell you the truth, even if I had the tools to make workable war machines, I probably won't implement them. Why? Because they are boring (gameplay wise).

There really isn't anything intresting about a nation that is always hunched back to end of the battlefield with troops at "Guard Commander" in every battle. Thematic, sure. Boring as hell? Heck yes.

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Yeah, Thunderers are still wicked; all I would want to do is change Thunderers to have the same ranged weapon as Storm Demons(so that strength buffs affect it, and to save a weapon slot), and maybe 5 ammo for the Flamethrowers.

I disagree about the air gems once you hit Const-4, though. Boots of Flight are prettymuch the most important item you can forge, right after Slave Matrices. Giving your Runelords mapmove 3 and flying just can't be beat. Dancing Tridents about double the life expectancy of a Slayer in melee, what with the repel and some ridiculously high attack stat.

The basic "lighting" attack would be just too powerful, because you have extremely easy access to "Strenght of Giants". 16 AN lightning damage is just way too much. Besides, the basic lightning weapon is just prec 0, which would make thunderers cause a lot of friendly casualties (=unthematic). Also, it's pretty clear from the description and the graphic that they basically use guns (oh right, silly me, "Thunder Staffs"). Why would strenght increase their damage with a gun?

But like you said, they are pretty wicked as they are. You kinda got me on the air items (although Winged Shoes do not give mapmove 3, they just give mapmove +1), but as far as I know there is no forgeable item that gives 3 formiable melee troops with accurate AN+ignore-shield lighting damage to range 30. Thunderers are powerful, are easily accessible and do not cost a lot of mage time. They are fine as they are.

I'll probably give the Flamethrowers a bit more ammo though. Added to fix-list.

Originally Posted by kianduatha

It would really be nice to get better randoms on at least the Runelords. It feels kinda weird that Runesmiths have more reliable Astral, and you just don't have the stability to be able to count on basically ever getting a water random before year 3 or something. You also might go for owl quills if you had any chance of getting an Air1 Runelord before they were obsolete.

Well, the elemental access in the v0.6 was way over the top and I guess I sort of "spoiled" you guys into it with it. The only reason Runesmiths even have elemental access was just to make the paths on the Anvil seem more thematic. It'd be odd if you just randomly got a summon with power in the elements when your other mages are restricted to Earth/Fire/Astral. I made the runelord elemental random 100% in v0.6 out of some random "oh noes, it's too weak" panic attack. Think about it, why should Runelords have common access to water magic? What does water magic have to do with with forging, runes and ancestors? Same thing applies to air magic.

You have a point about the odd 50% random, I'll beef it up to 100% for v0.8, added to fix list.

Originally Posted by kianduatha

Oh, by the way, Grudgestone might do with going down to Evo-2. Frankly, most of your Earth casters have better things to be doing anyways(Legions of Steel comes to mind, as do Earth Might and Earth Meld) and people are going to get level 2 anyways for Arcane Probing.

Good point. Added to fix list.

[alansmithee]

Originally Posted by Burnsaber

I guess we just disagree on what is acceptable power level. I could argue why Pythium is just plain better than all of the nations you mentioned, but it would probably be best if we just "agree to disagree" and continue on. Tangents and derails serve no one.

Last thing about this, I do think Pythium is stronger than the 3 nations I mentioned (maybe not C'Tis, but I'm a sucker for dominion effects). You just mentioned the mages, and I was speaking to that.

Here is the point where the issue boils down. I just don't see v0.7 dwarfs being weak. I just don't see it. Sure, you have weaknessess, but you have some insane strenghts. Forgebonus 30, superb national troops, summons that can throw 3 Thunder Strikes for 0 fatigue, summons that throw "ingnore shields" 10 AN damage with prec 15 to range 30, national anti-thug/SC chassis for fire gems, prospectors, etc...

I don't think they're Man/Malacha weak, but I see them closer to there than the (non-Ashdod) top. I don't see the slayers as being that good at all. They just seem to die to easily. And everyone knows as the game progresses, troops have less and less use.

Well, people don't really use them for that role (because you have Adons), just because even forgebonus 15 is seriously awesome on a mage that can reach "high level" forgings. I know that dwarfs don't have recruitable SC chassis to "feed" with their forgebonus 30, but still, there is a *lot* of scary **** you can do with them. Besides, Runelords being expensive is also a thematic consideration (In, WH there are likely about max 30 runelords remaining) and affects the King/Runelord competition for the capital commander slot.

I respect the thematic consideration. But I would never choose to recruit a king. You need the research too badly.

Sorry, but not going to happen. Dwarfs aren't supposed to be throwing fireballs around. Anvils of Doom are the only exception.

Exactly why should Runesmiths be thugs? Since when has that been a argument for comparing mages? (Master Smiths suck balls, you can't thug them!). And if Runsmiths were good thug chassises, why would you ever recruit Giant Slayers/Kings? And remember that just their upkeep/research ratio is second to Journeymen, they still, well.. do more research. If I just made them cheapest researchers, why would you ever recruit Journeymen? Now, Journeymen are the most cost-effective solution, but runesmiths give more (research)bang for your buck, ideal when you have some excess cash flow.

I found runesmiths to be decently thuggable in 0.6. That was one of the reasons I thought the slayers were so sub-par: they were totally bettered by runesmiths as thugs. And as it stands, i'd still never recruit a king or slayer. I see thugging being handled by golems for the most part now, or possibly, journeymen. The stealth still gives journeyman a place, even if they weren't more gold-efficient.

But the thing is, Dwarfs aren't that weak in magic currently. Sure, your battlefield magic sucks (until you get anvils), but you can make that up by summons and rituals. There is also is a lot you can do with Journeymen in combat.

I don't know about rituals making up for it, but I think the thunderers can help a bit making up for magic lack. I do see midgame potentially being a problem if you haven't hit anvils yet (which are really really amazing, and I love the changes to them)

See Sombre's post at the end of 5th page for some good reasons why war machines/gunpowder sucks. This mod is a conversion of the tabletop dwarf army into dom3 universe, not a straight conversion (the reasons for that are manifold, I won't start listing them here). To tell you the truth, even if I had the tools to make workable war machines, I probably won't implement them. Why? Because they are boring (gameplay wise).

There really isn't anything intresting about a nation that is always hunched back to end of the battlefield with troops at "Guard Commander" in every battle. Thematic, sure. Boring as hell? Heck yes.

That's not a big deal, just wondered was it something intentional, since the mod follows the tabletop pretty close. Besides, the anvils pretty much can do most of the "artillery" stuff anyways.

(although Winged Shoes do not give mapmove 3, they just give mapmove +1)

Pretty sure they give 3, as everything with flying has mapmove 3 (I could be wrong on that though)

And again, I'd like to stress how much I enjoy the mod, it's great fun and looks wonderful.