Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

Is the Destroyer of Worlds really such a clear better buy at 100 (for those who can buy him) than the Allfather is at 150? (for those who can buy him). I would tend to think not, though I agree that 150 sure feels like an awful lot when creating the pretender.

While he is obviously inferior to the DoW in starting magic (AD vs A2D2) and thus for blessing purposes of less use, additional paths cost 30 rather, useful for those going for smaller blesses or a touch of rainbow magic. Moreover, the reason people take the Allfather (when not just in order to be thematic) is usually to get a powerful awake or dormant SC with minimal research and equipment needs, and he certainly fits that role very well, considerably better than the DoW does, operating at a very strong level early on while providing some magical coverage later in the game; while the DoW may have 4 arms, the Allfather is flying, has glamour, and gets his own extra attacks (from 2xHoof(20)) (not to mention being extremely stealthy to boot). He can also sail huge armies across oceans, which can be anything from worthless to quite good depending on map.

His eyeloss and lack of foot slot hurts, but being mounted is fairly useful, so it is not all bad news.

For me, the reason not to take him is more that he doesn't provide the sort of power bless that is common for those very few who can get him (3 ages of Vanheim and one of Helheim) than because of his price for what he does, and for that reason alone I am tempted to think that lowering his price alone isn't going to make him a more popular pretender in general: At a whopping 150 points, he remains the most powerful early-game SC of the available chassis for Vanheim and Helheim (and one of the most powerful SC chassis amongst pretenders in the game in general).

For the games I like to play (60-80+ turns), he probably ought to have a lower cost (given the general CBM changes), but what, if any, would be the impact on blitz games from having a 75 points Allfather as you suggest? (I don't know).

What is the true value of glamour on an SC chassis? (Most of us would kill for it, but what's that in points? ) What is the true value of having path costs of 30 rather than, say, 50? What is the true cost of starting with an affliction that puts one just one eyeloss from blindness, even if the stats have been adjusted to compensate for it?

I find the Allfather devilishly hard to set a point value for because he just has way too many options available to him and several really good base abilities that everybody wants to get (such as flying) or wish they had (glamour).

Have you actually tried to play with him against real people? (everything works against the computer, after all).

He's not that exciting as an early SC. Actually, he's pretty craptastic. His starting gear is pretty bad. His stats are sort of ho-hum for a titan chassis. He has terrible early buffing potential with his innate paths. (Nothing useful until alt3 for mistform). See below for glamour. He has neither fear nor awe, so D5 and Dom9 are mandatory additional expenses on top of his 150pt pricetag. That's another 227 points *minimum* on just basic SC necessities, for a starting price of 377 points, and you haven't even tried to use that 30pt/new path yet.

Glamour is just free mirror image. Its really not all that, I don't know why people get so worked up about it. Yeah, its exciting when your basic troops have it. But your commanders with air magic can just *cast mirror image* - of course, you rarely do this because its a situational buff. (In fact, for an SC its not a very good one because they're supposed to be fighting *armies* - its most useful for anti-SCs who expect to be fighting one creature). Value of glamour on an SC chassis? Almost nothing.

That he has sailing is irrelevant. So does every fricking commander for the nations that can choose him. And if he's an SC, he's not taking an army with him. The ability is flavor and nothing more.

He flies, great. He also has no boots slot. So basically he gets free boots of flying - which costs what, 10a? 7a with a hammer? And it means you can't give him any different boots instead.

Compared to the Destroyer of Worlds, he's down a boots slot and 2 hand slots, and up 1 misc slot. Ie, net down 2 slots. As you noted, he's A1D1 instead of A2D2, so he's down 2 paths. His paths are also totally useless for Helheim or Vanheim, who have air magic and death magic already, and don't want air or death blesses - not even minor ones. And the DoW is available to Kailasa, who can actually want an A9 bless, and with sacred archers and mages a D8 bless could be entertaining. Ie, the DoW has better paths for the nations that can take it than the Allfather does, even assuming those path lengths were equal.

At 150pts awake, the fact that he can get new paths for 30pts doesn't actually mean much because you *don't have many points to spend*. Even asleep 30pts is a really expensive rainbow, and 150pts is a really expensive opening for a rainbow.

If you take him asleep he's no longer an early expander SC. Which means any advantage he might have had of having flying early is gone, because you could just make boots of flying for your other cheaper pretender at this point.

Lets compare him to some other pretenders Vanheim/Helheim/Midgard have:

Father of Winters:
Adv: Better stats (+1 defense/str), better protection (by one), better weapon out of the box, Cold Power, Chill Aura (of large), a magic path Van/hel might actually want to use for a major bless (Water), a boot slot, 6 more base hp, 50 points cheaper, +1 additional total paths (3 vs. 2)
Disad: Doesn't fly. We can fix this with his boot slot. More expensive new paths - at 50 pts cheaper the first new path is free by comparison, and we have a much better innate path for a bless anyway.

Asynja (this one's going to be embarassing):
Adv: Vastly better stats (8 more defense, 3 more att, mere 1 less str, even better precision fwiw), better weapon, much better armor (chainmail of displacement!), 3 more base hp, 2A vs. 1A1D, bootslot, 125pts less
Disad: Doesn't fly. We can fix this with boots. 50 pts/new path, but at 25 pts the first *2.5* are effectively free by comparison.

Blue Dragon
Adv: Also flies, better str/att (worse base def, but magic path will fix that), much better protection, better attack routine, breath weapon, magic path we actually care about on the pretender, 100points cheaper, innate Fear +5
Disad: Fewer slots, Much more expensive additional paths (yeah, but we saved 100 points on the chassis, and we get a good bless to boot)

Keeper of the Bridge
Adv: +1 att, much better protection, magic path we actually care about (E), 100 pts cheaper
Disad: 1 less str, 2 fewer base hp, more expensive new paths, doesn't fly (hey, these are actually comparable - too bad one's 100 pts cheaper)

Wyrm:
Adv: 78 more base hp!, Much higher str, att, prot (lower defense), regeneration of awesome, fear +0, amphibious, better attack routine, 100 pts less, extra head slot
Disad: Doesn't fly, fewer slots, no magic, more expensive paths

Totally owns Allfather as an early SC. At the point savings, can afford a magic path (or two!) trivially by comparison.

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The allfather is worse than all of those, maybe comparable at best (the Keeper of the Bridge has E, which makes it arguable, although for the nations in question i'd say the Keeper is marginally better), and that's before even considering relative point cost. At 2-3x the point cost of the other options, the fact that he is *worse* than them is just appalling. The two things he routinely does better are flying and cheaper new paths. Of course, the first is only relevant if you take him awake (easy to solve with forging for nations that have abundant air), and the second is impossible to get any relative advantage out of because his base cost is so expensive you don't have the points left to really use it - especially if you take him awake to use the early flying.

And of course, the allfather should also be balanced against the opposition as well. Consider Moloch/PoD/Gorgon. All of which come with Fear (often powerful fear), 3 total paths, flying, full slots (no missing boot slot), and other abilities. in current CBM their point costs are 125/125/150 respectively, and they all are much better than the allfather as early SCs, and 2 of them are better as bless chasses.

He even compares unfavorably to the vampire queen, who, while physically unimpressive, does have a host of useful abilities, the same new magic path cost and flight, and is immortal.

If the allfather was as good as a gorgon (equal to it in combat potential, equally useful magical paths for the nation it belongs to), it would be worth 150 points. Neither its magic paths nor its combat ability live up to that comparison.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Have you actually tried to play with him against real people? (everything works against the computer, after all).

I have, and it went great. But I was really lucky in that game.
Allfather's main flaw is that he doesnt cover Vanheim's main weaknesses (which is limited magic).

[chrispedersen]

I think you are missing a huge contributor to their value.

If I am palying a sacred nation: Mictlan, Lanka.. etc. I choose a different target. Period.

Lowering the cost would mean ulm doesn't have to make choices. I've had a lot of experience with MP, and a fair amount of success. I just had my butt handed to me by Fantomen in a straight up fight with ulm as is.

[Maerlande]

I think you are missing a huge contributor to their value.

What would that be Chris? Don't get me wrong. I think the Black Templars have value and I buy them depending on the strategy. I just think they are overpriced. I know you have lot's of MP experience and I'm interested in your analysis.

I doubt I would play a build based on them, but it's possible.

An MR boost would sure help. A suggestion on IRC was made to use them with Legions of Steel which is great except that it's very hard for Ulm to get many LoS casters with only 1/4 of black priests having the capability and only after Conj 3 research. Still, 20 protect +3 is very very nice.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Maerlande

What would that be Chris? Don't get me wrong. I think the Black Templars have value and I buy them depending on the strategy. I just think they are overpriced. I know you have lot's of MP experience and I'm interested in your analysis.

I doubt I would play a build based on them, but it's possible.

An MR boost would sure help. A suggestion on IRC was made to use them with Legions of Steel which is great except that it's very hard for Ulm to get many LoS casters with only 1/4 of black priests having the capability and only after Conj 3 research. Still, 20 protect +3 is very very nice.

Hey Maerlande,

The fact that because they *can* build guardians, sacred nations don't choose ulm as a target.

I disagree completely with squirrel that bless nations tend to field large armies of smiters. In fact, very few nations field large numbers of H3 priests. Abysia comes to mind.

Secondly; Ulm has a 25% production bonus. This means that it is easier to have dump stats, and translates into a bonus on pretender design.

Finally, I *like* the low MR of ulm units. I don't believe accurate stats are tracked since the recent changes to ulm. However I definitely do not view it as one of the weak nations.

Ulm has a national spell that boosts MR. I would rather increase the AoE of that spell than make any fundamental changes to ulm units.

I won the all ulm civil war (admittedly late age), but I think many of the same principles carry through for ulm from beginning to end.

To me, ulms low MR is a guide that ulm needs to transition from national troops to other things. But due to its forge bonus, or national spells (la) ulm has pretty good options in those areas.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

The fact that because they *can* build guardians, sacred nations don't choose ulm as a target.

Ghoul guardians are neither especially fast nor especially strong defenders. So they are likely to get attacked before attacking, and likely to die when attacked. Defense 6 is pitifully easy to hit, and Protection 19 isn't spectacular without decent defense to keep the number of hits low. Especially since many sacreds used for rushing are going to be offensively powerful, like F9W9 jags or Gibborim with ~20 strength, and so on. The best defense against many of these sacreds is the Templars because they combine good defense with good protection in addition to a good offense.

The problem, of course, is having them get eaten by the opposing prophet (or other H3 priests if they have them) while they are stymying the sacreds. The ghoul guardians might survive smite-spam, but they just keel over and die when anything with plausible offense gets near them.

I disagree completely with squirrel that bless nations tend to field large armies of smiters. In fact, very few nations field large numbers of H3 priests. Abysia comes to mind.

It only takes one smiter to ruin an reasonable force of Templar, since they kill about 3 templar for every 4 smites, and a reasonable force is ~10.

Secondly; Ulm has a 25% production bonus. This means that it is easier to have dump stats, and translates into a bonus on pretender design.

...

Neutral production scales with *turmoil 3* and *cold 3* found me definitively resource limited. Ulm's troops individually take a lot of resources and not much gold with the exception of Templars, who take a lot of both.

Ulm has a national spell that boosts MR. I would rather increase the AoE of that spell than make any fundamental changes to ulm units.

Thaum 4 is kind of late to be fending off a rush, especially as Ulm is not going to be blazing fast in the research department. And only gets E2 on 25% of black priests.

[chrispedersen]

Neutral production scales with *turmoil 3* and *cold 3* found me definitively resource limited. Ulm's troops individually take a lot of resources and not much gold with the exception of Templars, who take a lot of both.

Sorry. I can't imagine taking turmoil-3 with ulm. You have hearty, expensive units. Get the scales to buy them.

More or less you have units with good protection, good precision or strength, good hit points. Your weakness is mobility and magic resistance.

So unit for unit your units compare well in straight out combat against other nations.

Thaum 4 is kind of late to be fending off a rush, especially as Ulm is not going to be blazing fast in the research department. And only gets E2 on 25% of black priests.

Since all of my researchers are black priests.. E2 is never a problem. I like the lower upkeep costs. Reserve the others for blood hunting.

I also like to take an awake or dormant pretender at the worst to take care of the holes in magic paths, act as a deterrent to rushes, and to start using my forge bonus as fast as possible.


Finally, you decried the ghouls defense adn mobility. Once you're going to get hit (def 6) the point is don't try to compensate for it.

Either boost their protection up (legions of steel) or get them berserking - find a shaman.

19 protection isn't great?? huh? Barkskin em, or whatever and most usual troops will take 2-3 hits to kill em. Whereas the converse is not true.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

I have, and it went great. But I was really lucky in that game.
Allfather's main flaw is that he doesnt cover Vanheim's main weaknesses (which is limited magic).

I would say thats *a* problem with it, but its main problem is its horribly overcosted, which makes it impossible to really benefit from any of its advantages.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

I would say thats *a* problem with it, but its main problem is its horribly overcosted, which makes it impossible to really benefit from any of its advantages.

Vanheim has cold scale, and can perfectly live with some sloth, so they have free points to buy Allfather. But they cant buy him enough extra magic paths to really diversify with him.
So yeah, you can say its his high cost that is a real problem.
Make him much cheaper, and he will be terribly overpowered though. With Awe, Allfather can solo indies on turn 3 (with an earthen kite shield). Having a stealthy, awake SC-God which also diversifies you into death and, I dont know, astral may be a bit too much.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Vanheim has cold scale, and can perfectly live with some sloth, so they have free points to buy Allfather. But they cant buy him enough extra magic paths to really diversify with him.
So yeah, you can say its his high cost that is a real problem.
Make him much cheaper, and he will be terribly overpowered though. With Awe, Allfather can solo indies on turn 3 (with an earthen kite shield). Having a stealthy, awake SC-God which also diversifies you into death and, I dont know, astral may be a bit too much.

So lets see, you're advocating 150 pt chassis + 30 pt new path + at least 72 pts boosting the new path (S4 or you'll just get mage dueled to death, and even that is somewhat risky) + 21x7=147 points on dominion, or 399 points, and that's still a pretty minimal allfather. You're also advocating awake, so we're already 2 scales in the hole from balanced (ok, so that covers C2 of the C3 you're going to take). Now, we desperately need Mg1 and O3, and you've advocated Sl3, so our points balance. We have 31 points left which is A3 or D3 or A2D2. And you know what, that's a really crappy pretender for the points we just spent. We can pile on some misfortune (2), which gives us enough to get up to D5 for fear (from D3) plus give us A3. Of course, now we'll be fending off indie barbarians all game long, with our non-existent armies since Van's troops require non-trivial amounts of resources, so we can't mass troops very fast with Sl3. And our sacreds have no bless worth caring about. And our sacred mages/thugs have no bless worth caring about. And its not even a very good allfather.

I mean, I confess, you can just play the Allfather. You have to basically give up on all your national units, but you'll get an allfather worth caring about. Of course, you'll lose since the only thing you have going for you is the Allfather, but you can do it.

The ability to solo indies on turn 3 is actually rather pathetic for a titan chassis. Most Titans can do it on turn 2, at least if they're sufficiently careful about who they attack. (I imagine he can too. But he's not as good at it as say, the Wyrm at 1/3 his cost).

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Because, you know, taking a cheap SC pretender like the 25pt Asynja, and paying 50points each for new paths would also get you Astral and Death and *still* be cheaper than the Allfather... And did I mention she has better stats and equipment like a *chainmail of displacement* to start with, so she can be SCing from turn 2? And a boot slot to slap some Boots of Flying in?

And because, you know, Vanheim does get D1 randoms I'm reasonably sure. Or can just gain access to death via blood summons. So access to death is not exciting. So we can just save another 50 points and skip death on the pretender.