Exploit question

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

No, not true, or rather not always true. Expansion IS important (every turn that I am not at war with somebody feels like a wasted turn once indies are eaten), of course, but if I invested more in diversification I can get an upper hand over somebody who invested everything into expansion.
Not true with CBM 1.6 anymore.

Then maybe you need to learn to play better? Because every turn spent fighting when somebody else isn't fighting is another turn of income they've turned into castles and research mages that you haven't. So that could quite possibly be why you're not able to win. And really, if a player who is playing to rush can't beat somebody who is playing for a long term victory, then the balance is broken anyways.

Really. Nobody managed to win for Bandar Log even with clams.

Nobody has reported a win is what you mean. But then, nobody has reported a win with Vanheim either, and they are certainly not a weak nation, and only a single win has been reported for Ashdod. Clearly we can't really rely on the list of reported wins.

Ctis and Jotunheim have OK troops, not to mention that most victories we know of were won with gemgens. MA Caelum has awesome combat mages while EA Caelum has thugs / combat mages.

Now you're bringing mages into it. I thought you said that it was impossible to overcome poor national troops, and yet, now you're telling me that good combat mages can do so. Why don't you think through your statements before you make them?

And, my oh my, not all games are won by Ctis and Rlyeh either. Not even by MA Pythium, although it kind of dominates MA. Maybe thats because clams are not the MAIN factor?

In any game that lasts for sufficiently long, the winner will be the person who has forged more clams. There's some small caveats to that, given that some nations can survive wishes for armageddon better than others, but those aren't really that important.

Then they will come and say OMG, dont ever start a game without CBM 1.6, vanilla is so ridiculously unbalanced, I've read it on the forums!

Are you, in your extreme arrogance, not perhaps aware that there are plenty of people who have been playing Dominions for twice as long as you've been a member of this forum, and that these people are the primary ones behind the removal of gem generators? I've seen them ruin games for five years now, and I was ecstatic to see them finally removed.

For you, perhaps. But not for me. And deciding for others is like playing a God.

Please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that you aren't trying to tell others how they should play the game.

Right now, it has worse balance between nations (MA Oceania without clams? haha) and gemgens did NOT add to micromanagement that much, its a nonsense. I played this game too, remember? To make clams is to give several extra orders per turn. How many clams are you forging?.. 3? 4? Thats 6 to 8 extra clicks.

No, they aren't horrible to make. The micromanagement comes in the fact that you typically put them on scouts, who will sit with the hide order, and require you to press 'n' more than a hundred times in a single province. If you hold it down too long, thanks to there not being a previous button, you have to go through it all over again to make sure you aren't missing any commanders. Blood stones require you to move slaves between scouts unless you pay your anti-micro tax and build labs everywhere. Then there are fever fetishes, which are micromanagement hell.

Sure, I'd make a God who can summon a naiad to clam for me, and rush Bandar Log. And, oh wonder, MA Marignon has won 2 games in HoF *with gemgens*, while Bandar Log has won none.
Thanks for proving my point.

Are you aware that ignoring your opponent's arguments is usually considered to mean that you are conceding that they are correct? C'Tis and R'Lyeh have both won just as many games as Marignon in that survey. 44 games is far too small of a sample size to pull a proper distribution out of a dataset where there are are 23 possible victorious nations.

Personally I'd be happy to play Bandar Log against you on, say, Urgaia. But, since you've already indicated that you don't play the game anymore (Though why you hang around the forum then I don't know), I guess we'll have to skip that.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Graeme Dice

Then maybe you need to learn to play better? Because every turn spent fighting when somebody else isn't fighting is another turn of income they've turned into castles and research mages that you haven't. So that could quite possibly be why you're not able to win. And really, if a player who is playing to rush can't beat somebody who is playing for a long term victory, then the balance is broken anyways.

A classic l2p comment? Feel free to consider me a noob, its quite refreshing.
But its possible to build mages and fight at the same time, believe me or not.

Nobody has reported a win is what you mean. But then, nobody has reported a win with Vanheim either, and they are certainly not a weak nation, and only a single win has been reported for Ashdod. Clearly we can't really rely on the list of reported wins.

Yep, nobody has reported a win, its the same thing. And no, I have reported a win with Vanheim, but HoF is not updated anymore. Vanheim is not that uber-strong anyway, it is rather limited in its magic... and it cant clam. Hehe. LA Vanheim is much stronger in my opinion.
Ashdod is banned all too often now, so cant blame them for not winning.

Now you're bringing mages into it. I thought you said that it was impossible to overcome poor national troops, and yet, now you're telling me that good combat mages can do so. Why don't you think through your statements before you make them?

Of course I am. Combat mages are part of your military, arent they? And recruitable thugs too.

In any game that lasts for sufficiently long, the winner will be the person who has forged more clams. There's some small caveats to that, given that some nations can survive wishes for armageddon better than others, but those aren't really that important.

Not entirely true.

Are you, in your extreme arrogance, not perhaps aware that there are plenty of people who have been playing Dominions for twice as long as you've been a member of this forum, and that these people are the primary ones behind the removal of gem generators? I've seen them ruin games for five years now, and I was ecstatic to see them finally removed.

Perhaps you, in your extreme arrogance, are not aware that I was playing this game before I joined this forum, in another community, since Dominions II, and played Dominions I in single player? Now if you were playing this game before Dominions PPP... :P

Are you aware that ignoring your opponent's arguments is usually considered to mean that you are conceding that they are correct? C'Tis and R'Lyeh have both won just as many games as Marignon in that survey. 44 games is far too small of a sample size to pull a proper distribution out of a dataset where there are are 23 possible victorious nations.

Are you aware that you just ignored my arguments too?

Personally I'd be happy to play Bandar Log against you on, say, Urgaia. But, since you've already indicated that you don't play the game anymore (Though why you hang around the forum then I don't know), I guess we'll have to skip that.

Because I still play two games that already started? Once they are over, I will get everyone rid of my annoying presense. I didnt find this Urgaia game you mentioned, by the way. I was curious about its settings.
Or... you mean a 1vs1 game on a Urgaia map? And how would making a custom build for overcoming one opponent prove that monkey military is good enough without clams?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

But its possible to build mages and fight at the same time, believe me or not.

Except that you can build more mages when you aren't fighting. Every 1500 gold that goes into an army is essentially another castle+lab that you could have built.

Yep, nobody has reported a win, its the same thing.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that out of 44 games, one would expect at least a few nations to have no wins.

Of course I am. Combat mages are part of your military, arent they? And recruitable thugs too.

They are part of your military. They are not part of your national troops.

Not entirely true.

Really? Then how do you plan to win if your opponent has 100+ clams while you have 50? He can dispel any globals you put up, and will always outproduce you. Never mind that there is absolutely no reason why a player that controls more than half the map shouldn't win in the first place.

Are you aware that you just ignored my arguments too?

How? Seeing as how Bandar Log's troops (Especially white ones) are nearly as good as Marignon's, and seeing as how Marignon won't have sufficient astral power in a rush situation to deal with the MR 8 on the other monkeys, I don't see how their troops are going to make a rush that easy. Plus, summoning Naiads to forge clams means that you won't have as many as the person who doesn't have to spend water gems on mages.

Because I still play this game in older games? Once they are over, I will get everyone rid of my annoying presense. I didnt find this Urgaia game you mentioned, by the way. I was curious about its settings.
Or... you mean a 1vs1 game on a Urgaia map? And how would making a custom build for overcoming one opponent prove that monkey military is good enough without clams?

No such game currently exists. And I'm also not foolish enough to think that a single duel game would make any difference to your opinion at all. What it would do is merely show that their military is not as pathetic as you seem to think it is. They have elephants, so they can expand about as fast as double blessed Mictlan, and their other troops are adequate.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by Graeme Dice

Except that you can build more mages when you aren't fighting. Every 1500 gold that goes into an army is essentially another castle+lab that you could have built.

And still, its better to balance conquest with research. All-out turtling doesnt win, even now with clams.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that out of 44 games, one would expect at least a few nations to have no wins.

Actually, this is just what I mean. Out of 44 games (more now, actually), weakest nations have no wins.

They are part of your military. They are not part of your national troops.

Сasuistry?

Really? Then how do you plan to win if your opponent has 100+ clams while you have 50? He can dispel any globals you put up, and will always outproduce you. Never mind that there is absolutely no reason why a player that controls more than half the map shouldn't win in the first place.

If you turtled all the way as you suggested early (because every turn you spend fighting is a wasted turn, right?) while another player expanded, he will have much more gems from his lands, and probably a discount site which is often a game-winner.

How? Seeing as how Bandar Log's troops (Especially white ones) are nearly as good as Marignon's

Kek. A good one.

and seeing as how Marignon won't have sufficient astral power in a rush situation to deal with the MR 8 on the other monkeys, I don't see how their troops are going to make a rush that easy.

Fire magic maybe. Or massed x-bows against these bucklers. In my experience, Bandar Log are not much of a treat early.

Plus, summoning Naiads to forge clams means that you won't have as many as the person who doesn't have to spend water gems on mages.

True, you wont have as many. Still, quantity isnt always the main factor.
By the way... In order to clam, Bandar Log either need to summon a Yakshiny or Naga, or construction 6 and two boosters. (One of which requires water 3 to make, but thats a minor detail indeed).

No such game currently exists. And I'm also not foolish enough to think that a single duel game would make any difference to your opinion at all.

Yes, because duels and full games are quite different.