Nations under CBM 1.6

[Mardagg]

Btw,saying that Machaka got a huge hit in CBM 1.6 ,makes things a bit too easy,dont you think?

Sure,they cant forge fever fetishes anymore,but other nations cant forge clams and/or blood stones anymore...

I actually think Machaka is stronger now bc of this.
Still not a top nation,but playable imo.
Just spam fire drakes with your fire random dragon mastered sorcerers and you got some good use for your fire/nature gems again.
And Hunter Spiders are cheaper now.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

I actually think Machaka is stronger now bc of this.
Still not a top nation,but playable imo.
Just spam fire drakes with your fire random dragon mastered sorcerers and you got some good use for your fire/nature gems again.
And Hunter Spiders are cheaper now.

The strength of Machaka was always in my opinion the strong mid-game. They struggle early on in the game, and they quite simply suck late in the game. If Machaka is to do good, to win if you so want to say, they have to steamroll the field in the midgame (after havng survived the early phases somehow).

The Machaka PD is a joke, even with the slight boost seen in CBM 1.6. Thus Machaka is very weak against an early rush (before you have been able to summon fire-drakes to bolster the frontline and crafted enough boosters for your mages to make a difference on the battlefield). Machakan PD is famous for rushing forwards and then be killed by their own missiles... Try it in SP if you want to see the hilariosity.

The midgame is where Machaka can shine. Flaming arrows (althjugh Flaming Arros is tougher to get to in CBM), firedrakes at front, spiders on flanks, evocations. Of course you need lots of firegems to succeed in all that. Firegems which are not available in CBM1.6 anymore.

Late game for Machaka does not exist. The game is over once the SC's enter the field. No endgame for Machaka in vanilla, not in earlier versions of CBM, and not in 1.6. The do or die time for Machaka is the mid-game, and in 1.6 there is no "do" left in that.

@Squirrel: If you honestly think LA Ulm rangers, ghoul guards and x-bowmen are not enough to take you through the early game, then you do need to learn to play the game called Dominions 3

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

The strength of Machaka was always in my opinion the strong mid-game. They struggle early on in the game, and they quite simply suck late in the game. If Machaka is to do good, to win if you so want to say, they have to steamroll the field in the midgame (after havng survived the early phases somehow).

The Machaka PD is a joke, even with the slight boost seen in CBM 1.6. Thus Machaka is very weak against an early rush (before you have been able to summon fire-drakes to bolster the frontline and crafted enough boosters for your mages to make a difference on the battlefield). Machakan PD is famous for rushing forwards and then be killed by their own missiles... Try it in SP if you want to see the hilariosity.

The midgame is where Machaka can shine. Flaming arrows (althjugh Flaming Arros is tougher to get to in CBM), firedrakes at front, spiders on flanks, evocations. Of course you need lots of firegems to succeed in all that. Firegems which are not available in CBM1.6 anymore.

Late game for Machaka does not exist. The game is over once the SC's enter the field. No endgame for Machaka in vanilla, not in earlier versions of CBM, and not in 1.6. The do or die time for Machaka is the mid-game, and in 1.6 there is no "do" left in that.

Yeah,the PD is hilarious bad.
That should and probably will be adressed in future CBM upgrades,QM already said this.
In general,i dont mind certain nations being bad at Early game and/or Midgame and/or Late game.Part of the way and style the nation is intended to play.
Adds diversity.
If you prefer having a strong endgame ,just take a nation that got it.
I for my part like playig "fast" nations from time to time, with a bad endgame,thus being forced to get a significant advantage early on.
A bad late game sure is not advisable on huge maps,other than that u just cant turtle,which is good imo,it adds more action.
If i compare my current MP games with my history of games on Dom2,where a lot of nations were considered to have very bad Late and/or early game btw,simply too much turtling and racing for research is going on these days.If you want to turtle take a nation with good endgame,if you want to be ruthless take those giants,rushing your neigbours.

Concerning Machaka,i still do have a different opinion.
It looks to me,that those Hunter spider sacreds are now very much affordable.They make sick good,and i mean really sick good, expansion parties for the early game.In my last SP game tests,i was able to field 3-5 expansion parties by the end of year 1,taking 0 losses most of the time.4-6 spiders and only some archers are steamrolling most indies.Map move 2 and forest survival adds a lot of flexibilty there ,too.Of course,you have to take a pretty good bless for this,which is easily affordable with Machaka though,thanks to Heat 3.
I also think that keeping the spider after losing the rider shouldnt be underestimated in power,especially with a low to medium Nature bless.

If you dont take a good bless,you probably are forced to take an awake SC pretender to help with expansion,thats right.
But if i want to play Machaka,i want to play it aggressive,that fits for the theme.
Mid game is pretty good,like you said.Those Fire and Nature mages are perfect for fire drake spamming.
Late game is not the best,but at least you got early access to death and nature.Actually machaka can have a very good nature gem income pretty fast.That looks to me like a shot for GoH and Tartarians.
If you manage to get very mighty in the early and midgame,but werent able to win,you should have a decisive gem advantage at least to keep the GoH up,i would think.
Additionally,it sure comes down on having some kind of astral access.
Astral is heavily nerved bc of no gem gens,everyone is in need of those pearls.
Thats why its probably enough,if you got only some shamans arcane probing with alchemized fire gems as early as possible,so that you can at least forge some items at the end game.
Some earth sites also offer pretty good astral mages.

Needs to be tested,for sure.I will soon start a MP game playing Machaka,i am pretty curious.
They have been my favorite nation,besides Abysia,in Dom2 and even back there,Machaka was considered to be pretty weak(where i considered them pretty strong actually).

[statttis]

I'm in the midst of a CBM 1.6 game playing as Machaka, and they are in no way weak. Early on the hunter spiders are amazing. 4-5 of them can take most indies without losses, no bless required. Mid game is strong as you said. With the nerf to astral magic, in the late game your nature and death magic keep you competitive.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by statttis

I'm in the midst of a CBM 1.6 game playing as Machaka, and they are in no way weak. Early on the hunter spiders are amazing. 4-5 of them can take most indies without losses, no bless required. Mid game is strong as you said. With the nerf to astral magic, in the late game your nature and death magic keep you competitive.

Ahmm, finding a solution to take indies doesn't make a nation viable. I found an easy and cheap solution to take indies with EA Agartha and got royally kicked by human opponents (in a RAND game - I'd never take Agartha of my free will )

And 4-5 of them cost 320-400 gold and are not cheap on resources. At the same price you can take 10-13 regular spider riders that will also take most indies easily and w/o losses. You don't need bless for them so your pretender can take SC/Rainbow/Sage duty instead.

[WraithLord]

Yes, 80 gold hunter spider are more viable but I still think taking a strong bless with Machaka just for them is a big mistake.

My experience with 1.6 CBM Machaka shows them to be weak when facing human opponents who know what they're doing. They are not Agartha level weak but they are not ok or good either.

[Mardagg]

[quote=WraithLord;724920

And 4-5 of them cost 320-400 gold and are not cheap on resources. At the same price you can take 10-13 regular spider riders that will also take most indies easily and w/o losses. You don't need bless for them so your pretender can take SC/Rainbow/Sage duty instead.[/QUOTE]

try E9N4 Hunter spiders.
The real difference,besides getting a lot less afflictions and much longer life span on the rider: Regen on your Spider,after the rider died.
Thats a respectable force still in midgame imo+on a power per upkeep scale,the sacred hunters are now much better investment longterm,even though you are a bit limited with your pretender choice(imprisoned for good scales) imo.
I wouldnt rely on the hunters without a blessing,though.

[WraithLord]

"If you prefer having a strong endgame ,just take a nation that got it."
Or don't play RAND games

"It looks to me,that those Hunter spider sacreds are now very much affordable.They make sick good,and i mean really sick good, expansion parties for the early game"
Did you read Baalz Machaka guide?- He presents a different approach and is quite convincing at that.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

"It looks to me,that those Hunter spider sacreds are now very much affordable.They make sick good,and i mean really sick good, expansion parties for the early game"
Did you read Baalz Machaka guide?- He presents a different approach and is quite convincing at that.

That guide is very well written,but he was using older CBM versions.
He was looking at (overpriced) 125g Hunter spiders,we are looking at 80g Hunter spiders.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

Did you read Baalz Machaka guide?- He presents a different approach and is quite convincing at that.

Baalz' excellent guide on Machaka is mostly about Fever Fetishes, and how to use the cheaper spiders until you have enough Fever Fetishes to have a proper fire-gem income. Fever Fetish is a unique item in CBM 1.6, so that is not possible anymore, and thus the basis for that guide has gone to where the dodos are.