Mod: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by LDiCesare

The point of CBM is to make the huge variety of units more usable. The 'Balance' in CBM means units inside a nation are more balanced so you have more reasons to pick under-used units. I don't understand why you'd want to use this mod if you think some units should be removed, as it strives to make more units usable.

I didn't say that I think that units should be removed. I said that some units could effectively be removed, and will always be effectively removed from the game if they aren't worth building. People still recruit theurg acolytes even though theurgs are better mages because theurg acolytes have a useful purpose and are worthwhile. People don't recruit battle deacons, and never will as long as communicants are available. You'd have to make battle deacons free before they would be worth recruiting instead of a communicant. The Alae legionnaire might as well not exist because the hastatus is strictly superior. Reduce its gold cost to match its actual combat performance, and it would become a useful unit.

Yes, masters of the five elements are better than masters of the way, and people would recruit masters of the five elements over masters of the way if they had a choice. This doesn't mean that masters of the five elements have to remain capital only so that people will use masters of the way. It means that should masters of the five elements be made recruit anywhere, then masters of the way would have to be improved to be worth recruiting instead of a master of the five elements.

It's quite clear that balance between nations is the overall goal of the mod. Otherwise nations that have worthless national troops in vanilla like Bogarus wouldn't have been given heavy cavalry that's is virtually identical to tower knights. Your argument that the mod is meant to promote balance "within" a nation is basically nothing more than the argument mod supporters use to convince those people who like imbalance, because they can take advantage of it, to play in the modded game. The CBM doesn't go nearly far enough in making all units viable.

[Sombre]

Originally Posted by Tollund

It's quite clear that balance between nations is the overall goal of the mod. Otherwise nations that have worthless national troops in vanilla like Bogarus wouldn't have been given heavy cavalry that's is virtually identical to tower knights. Your argument that the mod is meant to promote balance "within" a nation is basically nothing more than the argument mod supporters use to convince those people who like imbalance, because they can take advantage of it, to play in the modded game. The CBM doesn't go nearly far enough in making all units viable.

qm has said before that nation balance is not the primary concern. Obviously it is something that CBM works towards addressing, but I don't know where you get that it's the 'overall goal'.

[Tollund]

Originally Posted by Sombre

qm has said before that nation balance is not the primary concern. Obviously it is something that CBM works towards addressing, but I don't know where you get that it's the 'overall goal'.

I'm assuming it's the overall goal because it's the only overall goal that's worthwhile for a mod that makes as many changes as it already does. If you would rather it not change overall balance between nations, then there are a large number of things that will have to be done to restore the balance back to what it is in vanilla. The nations with light cavalry, for example, will have to have the power of their other units reduced, or costs increased so that the improvements to cavalry don't upset the balance between nations. Niefelheim will need some major changes to unit costs so that the extra 100 gold cost on niefel jarls and the smaller cold auras on niefel giants doesn't reduce the nation's power relative to other nations.

Every change that is made to a nation changes the relative balance between nations. To argue otherwise is ignorant.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Tollund

I'm assuming it's the overall goal because it's the only overall goal that's worthwhile for a mod that makes as many changes as it already does.

Nope. The only overall worthwhile goal, obviously, is to make the game more fun, by increasing diversity. How is diversity increased? By balancing under-used stuff.

Originally Posted by Tollund

If you would rather it not change overall balance between nations, then there are a large number of things that will have to be done to restore the balance back to what it is in vanilla.

Obviously, "not changing the overall balance" is not a goal of CBM. The overall balance will be changed, as a side effect of making under-used stuff more worthwhile.

There's nothing stopping you from making your own nation-balancing mod, if that's what you want.

I think Chris P has a project like that started. And there's another mod somewhere that gives all players identical nations, if you're looking for perfect balance for some reason.

[chrispedersen]

Right, my balance mod makes changes to oceania, all agarthas, and abysia.

I had changes started for machaka, and eriu.