I need Information

[DRG]

OK. I'm interested in the combat loads and have already made some changes in that regard because our HE loadout tends to be a bit low in some OOB's but I will only be adjusting the grossly out of line. If one nation has 15 sabot and another 12 that's not going to be an issue for me. Having 8 HE when it should be closer to 18 will be. Also, most of the "AP" ammo for the export 125mm guns has already been removed. "AP" in the game CAN ALSO represent older "sabot" ammo when a nation may be using old and new stock but in many cases ( already corrected ) tanks were set up with only AP and no sabot whatsoever and the "AP" number wasn't even high enough to represent BM-9. A good example of that would be unit 553 in the Libyan OOB. It currently has an in service date of 2005 but is using what amounts to pre 1970 era BM-9 for it's main tank killing ammo. As noted, problems like that have already been identified and fixed

BM-12 is a valid addition to export but the problem with BM-17 is, depending on the source, only marginally better or marginally worse that BM-15. In game terms when averaged out it might be a point higher or lower than BM-15 and when you average those two together you end up with the same number. Given the DOI for both is 1972 what will be in the game for that year is a composite of BM-15 / BM-17 with an rated 43 pen which will give the published certified penetrations and solid average of the predicted average penetrations at 2000 m and that would only be used for nations that indicate a 72 ammo. Some, Like the Russian OOB use different combinations of Sabot and HEAT advancements than the export clients which makes the whole exercise a real treat and it gets worse the deeping I dig and I've been trying to get through all the other work first before settling down to deal with the ammo issue which will involved virtually all the major suppliers ammo. Once I realized the con-o-worms I was opening up at the beginning of January I put it aside and should start on it by next weekend. Preliminary checkes seem to indicate that much of the German Ammo was given penetration stats at the "muzzle" that would be more applicable to distances between 1km and 2 km but , as noted, I put that all aside to deal with the other OOB issues first so I haven't done the type of research needed to ensure that is indeed the case

Don

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by DRG

BM-12 is a valid addition to export but the problem with BM-17 is, depending on the source, only marginally better or marginally worse that BM-15. In game terms when averaged out it might be a point higher or lower than BM-15 and when you average those two together you end up with the same number. Given the DOI for both is 1972 what will be in the game for that year is a composite of BM-15 / BM-17 with an rated 43 pen which will give the published certified penetrations and solid average of the predicted average penetrations at 2000 m and that would only be used for nations that indicate a 72 ammo.
Don

As I noted trying to fit BM-17 in the game is a questionable exercise, BM-9/12/15 should cover the "Cold War era export rounds" category adequately.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by DRG

OK. I'm interested in the combat loads and have already made some changes in that regard because our HE loadout tends to be a bit low in some OOB's but I will only be adjusting the grossly out of line. If one nation has 15 sabot and another 12 that's not going to be an issue for me. Having 8 HE when it should be closer to 18 will be.

Agree and besides what I have is only for some countries for some periods of time.
Still I think it might be useful.

Egypt
T-54 – late 60’s/early70’s: 20 HE, 10 AP, 4-5 HEAT (if available)
T-55 - late 60’s/early70’s: 24 HE, 15 AP, 4-5 HEAT (if available)
T-62 - 20 HE, 10 SABOT, 10 HEAT

BM-8 was not available in 1973, Egypt got it in 1974-75. BR-412B was common.


Yugoslavia

T-34 - Early '50s antitank load: 23 HE, 24 AP, 8 HVAP
T-34 - Late '50s antitank load: 23 HE, 20 AP, 12 HVAP
T-34 - Early '60s antitank load (after HEAT aquisition): 23 HE, 12 AP, 8 HVAP, 12 HEAT
T-34 - Post 1975 antitank load (M74 HEAT): 23 HE, 8 AP, 8 HVAP, 16 HEAT

PT-76 - late '70s standard load: 20 HE, 4 BR-350B AP, 4 BR-354P subcaliber, 12 x M74 HEAT

T-54 - Standard load: 18 HE, 6 AP, 10 HEAT
T-54 - Infantry support : 22 HE, 4 AP, 8 HEAT
T-54 - Antitank load : 14 HE, 8 AP, 12 HEAT.

T-55 - Standard load: 20HE, 11AP, 12 HEAT,
T-55 - Infantry support: 26 HE, 8 AP, 9 HEAT,
T-55- Antitank action : 16 HE, 12 AP, 15 HEAT.

T- 72 – antitank load: 14 HE, 15 APFSDS, 10 HEAT
T- 72 - infantry support : 27 HE, 6 APFSDS, 6 HEAT
T- 72M – antitank load: 17 HE, 15 APFSDS, 12 HEAT
T- 72M – infantry support: 32 HE, 6 APFSDS, 6 HEAT

General rule for Yugoslavia
Antitank load: 40% HE, 60% antitank rounds,
Infantry support load: 70% HE, 30% antitank rounds.


East Germany

T-55 - late cold war: 22 HE, 15 APDS/APDSFS, 6 HEAT, .
T-72M - late cold war: 20 HE, 14 APDSFS, 5 HEAT.


USSR and others miscellaneous

Pt-76: 24 HE, 4 AP, 4 HVAP, 8 HEAT
BMP-1: 16 HE, 24 HEAT
T-54 - Non specified Warsaw Pact load: 17 HE, 11 AP, 6 HEAT
T-62: 22 HE, 12 APFSDS, 6 HEAT
T-62 (with missiles): 20 HE, 10 APFSDS, 6 HEAT, 6 missiles
T-72 - Non specified Warsaw pact load: 15 HE, 12 APFSDS, 12 HEAT

[Marcello]

Some additional comments.

Yugo combat loads tended to privilege antitank rounds, because the expected enemy was the soviet union and its large tank tank fleets.

The soviets were very particular about selling BM-8 APDS. Despite the fact that by the time it reached operational status it was hardly high tech its sale was often denied for years to non Warsaw pact nations, despite pressing requests for it.
This created the paradox that several countries fielded T-62s (and associated advanced APFSDS) years before they were allowed to get their hands on a badly needed APDS for their T-55.
It should be noted here that BR-412B/D were pretty marginal against tanks like the Patton series and were retained mainly because they were relatively cheap; the most effective antitank round was HEAT which, while it could destroy nearly everything it would face, was not super accurate.
Therefore an APDS was badly needed; yet it took a long time to field it and even then limits were placed upon its proliferation, so much that by the end of the Cold War only frontline satellite states like the GDR had it in abundance. Iraq, Yugoslavia etc were still employing BR-412B/D for their
T-55s in the late 80's and beyond, with newer APDS/APFSDS available in limited numbers.