spotting when turning around your units

[francoisD]

you do not understand the problem roremine

if imp is right, and i am not sure of this, a single unit get multiple chances to spot

assume a given infantry troop has a probabiliy of 10% to discover infantry troops, and 50% of bigger sized units PER TRY.

then simply by cliking several times on all the sides of a given hex, you raise all the probabilities to 100%

because you get multiple chances...

whatever the correct numbers, by clicking several times, you are guaranteed to discover all enemy units whatever their cover, exp, size, and so on...

i do not think this is fair. i think this is pure cheating and totally against the spirit of this game. and i am quite sure that some players already use this.

IF imp is right...

contrarily the situation you describe corresponds to the case a single unit gets a single chance to spot by hex. everything is fair, if you get more troops, you get more chances, balanced by the exp, of course.

this is the correct game.

the question is that, do you get multiple chances to spot by unit and by hex?

edit: or more exactly, do you get FREE multiple chances to spot?

because if this is free, players will try numerous times.

and we fall again in the second big question, if their is a price to turn your units in the same hex. because if their is a price, you cannot get multiple chances (or less)...

(except for units that the player does not intend to do anything else than spotting, but then to solve that problems we have to think together i guess)

[Imp]

Originally Posted by francoisD

you do not understand the problem roremine

if imp is right, and i am not sure of this, a single unit get multiple chances to spot

assume a given infantry troop has a probabiliy of 10% to discover infantry troops, and 50% of bigger sized units PER TRY.

then simply by cliking several times on all the sides of a given hex, you raise all the probabilities to 100%

because you get multiple chances...

whatever the correct numbers, by clicking several times, you are guaranteed to discover all enemy units whatever their cover, exp, size, and so on...

i do not think this is fair. i think this is pure cheating and totally against the spirit of this game. and i am quite sure that some players already use this.

IF imp is right...

contrarily the situation you describe corresponds to the case a single unit gets a single chance to spot by hex. everything is fair, if you get more troops, you get more chances, balanced by the exp, of course.

this is the correct game.

the question is that, do you get multiple chances to spot by unit and by hex?

edit: or more exactly, do you get FREE multiple chances to spot?

because if this is free, players will try numerous times.

and we fall again in the second big question, if their is a price to turn your units in the same hex. because if their is a price, you cannot get multiple chances (or less)...

(except for units that the player does not intend to do anything else than spotting, but then to solve that problems we have to think together i guess)

Pretty sure he does & %s do not stack up that way you would have to do it loads of times to get near to 100%. Mobhack obviosly has this on his to do list & if he feels its justified/fixable might change it discussing further wont change anything.
The only "person" who suffers is the AI as it does not do it but as a benchmark I am guessing most people use it less in a whole game than you do in a turn so for the standard player its not really an issue.

[francoisD]

how do you know what i am doing currently?

until up now i never spinned my troops in the same hexes. until andy told me it was as classical tactic.

now i am experimenting, and asking some details.

do you remember that i asked about this to be done automatically at the beginning of your turn?

if spinning troops in the same hex is a classical tactic, i am pretty sure that there are players, how many i do not know, but they exist, and they abuse the game

now if the designers of this game say that this is a real issue, but it would be too complex to solve for only a minority of players, i will understand that.

however i do not understand personnal attacks

and finally, roremine and others have raise the link between this issue and the difference about how react turretless tanks versus non turretless tanks

[RERomine]

I can't honestly say I've paid attention to whether or not I've spotted units on second and subsequent facing changes, so I don't know if you spot new units after the first turn. Even if I have, I can't say that there isn't a penalty on searches after the first facing change in a turn.

Given the nature of the game, there are certain aspects that are unrealistic with respect to searching/sighting. Being a turn based game, unless a unit ends its turn out in the open or a move triggers op-fire, it could duck from cover to cover and remain unseen until it is on top of a unit. Even if a tank were to approach via a completely covered or concealed route until it was 2 hexes away, in reality, you would probably know it was there unless the battle is raging in its full glory. Tanks make a lot of noise, so even if unseen, you would know something is there. Given those two examples of deviations from reality, it is possible to think multiple turn searching as compensation. This, in conjunction with the everyone knows all from the top down view.

In general, I agree with you francois. Units will primarily focus their attention in the direction they are looking and any rubber necking that occurs will be more of a cursory check of a sector than the thorough monitoring of the area they are facing. I don't make a point of turning all my units until they are in the thick of battle when they would be searching for targets to engage. Before this occurs, I depend on my original deployment to cover all sectors and logical avenues of approach. Once the fighting starts, I will turn and search with units near the point of contact because I have seen enemy units once I've turned. As mentioned, I don't recall if these are turns/searches after the first one or not.

I think we've all said, including myself, that changes in direction of leg units should be free. Giving it more thought, if the code is changed, maybe it should apply to them as well. If an infantry squad turns to their rear quadrant and spots a threat, more than likely, they are going to redeploy to meet that threat. Basically, they have figured out they are on the wrong side of the tree, rock, house, etc. In their original position, they have sought out the best cover and concealment available for a single direction. What covers and/or conceals you from one direction and allows line of sight, may provide none from another. One spot in a 50m hex isn't likely to provide cover, concealment and LOS from all directions at the same time, even a house. The soldier would have to quickly find suitable position facing in another direction. In a house, it would be going to a different window. Given infantry only moves so fast, a movement penalty should apply here as well.

Given all that and what I found out about neutral steering, if a movement penalty is applied for changing directions (hull direction with turreted vehicles) in the same hex, I would apply it to all units except possibly size 0 infantry. I would consider excluding size 0 infantry because it they are small and simply turning around may be adequate. A squad would have to redeploy facing the new direction. During op-fire vehicles with fast turrets or 360 mount weapons engage with without turning their hull. Some distinction would have to be made between fast and slow turrets, but the M-10 GMC would fall into the latter category.

Movement penalty could be taken from unused movement points from the previous turn during op-fire and current movement points if player movement phase. This is just my preference. It would force the player to decide between covering maximum distance or leaving maneuver points for op-fire turns if needed. Taking points from the next movement phase requires no tactical thought. If a unit physically changes hexes, no additional movement penalties apply for direction changes made in the player movement phase. Since the unit has physically moved, it might just be a matter of deciding how you want it faced once it gets to its final hex. Turning/searching before the move would incur a movement penalty. A lot of people want to make sure the coast is clear before they move, but this would take time, thus the movement penalty.

This is just my opinion at the moment of how I would code changes, based on about an hour of thought. More thought or more knowledge about the code might change my opinion. From the coding perspective, some things might sound good, but not be practical. I honestly don't know how Don and Andy have financially supported this product as long as they have, but not really any of my business.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by francoisD

how do you know what i am doing currently?

until up now i never spinned my troops in the same hexes. until andy told me it was as classical tactic.

now i am experimenting, and asking some details.

do you remember that i asked about this to be done automatically at the beginning of your turn?

if spinning troops in the same hex is a classical tactic, i am pretty sure that there are players, how many i do not know, but they exist, and they abuse the game

now if the designers of this game say that this is a real issue, but it would be too complex to solve for only a minority of players, i will understand that.

however i do not understand personnal attacks

and finally, roremine and others have raise the link between this issue and the difference about how react turretless tanks versus non turretless tanks

I dont just rembered you mentioning spining dozens of times hence the assumption.
Not a personal attack just stating its already being looked at so unless you can think of something new to bring to the table its already been covered.

[francoisD]

ok imp,

perhaps my post was too aggressive too. i am not a native english speaker (you should have noticed that already!), and what i write sometimes overshoots my mind .

in fact i did not get the time to play a single turn since more than one week. what i am saying through my posts is entirely based on what i discovered a few weeks ago. i remember that turning your troops in an hex does not take too much time.

you are right when you say that it would take a long time to reach high level of detection.


now roremine, thanks again for your post. very interesting, and you try to link the game to the reality to deduce improvements.
very nice again.

since we start to think about the code, now only don and andy can provide a true answer. we just have to wait!

[Imp]

No problems I can be a bit short sometimes when typing rather than speaking.
When you get more time we can do a PBEM if you want, happy to discuss the game as we play to if you want.