Phoenix MOD ideas open for review

[Pax]

Had a few ideas for the mod I'm working on; I'm nowhere near to
coding for these yet, but my offline ideas-file is growing
steadily. The current working name is "Phoenix MOD" but I'm open
to suggestions (especially if the name is already taken ).

What I'd like is, advice from folks about what they like or
dislike, and why of course; pointers from experienced MODders about
what looks like I couldn't manage with a mod, and so on.

So, in no particular order:

code:

---

Ship hulls (basic information)



|Name              |Short|Size|ECM|+S|E/Move|#E Max|Max|New? |

--------------------------------------------------------------

|Escort            | ES  | 100|+60|+2| 0.5  |  8   |18 |no   |

|Frigate           | FF  | 200|+45|+0| 0.5  |  8   |16 |no   |

|Destroyer         | DD  | 400|+30|+2|  1   |  8   |10 |no   |

|Heavy Destroyer   | HD  | 600|+15|+0|  1   |  8   | 8 |(LC) |

|Light Cruiser     | LC  | 800|+00|+1|  2   |  8   | 5 |(CC) |

|Cruiser           | CC  |1000|-15|+0|  2   |  8   | 4 |(BC) |

|Battlecruiser     | BC  |1250|-30|+1|  4   |  8   | 3 |(BB) |

|Battleship        | BB  |1500|-45|+0|  4   |  8   | 2 |(DN) |

|Dreadnaught       | DN  |2000|-60|+1|  8   |  8   | 2 |(bas)|

--------------------------------------------------------------

|Light Carrier     | LV  | 400|+30|+3|  1   |  6   | 9 |no   |

|Carrier           | CV  | 800|+00|+2|  2   |  6   | 5 |no   |

|Heavy Carrier     | HV  |1200|-30|+1|  3   |  6   | 3 |no   |

--------------------------------------------------------------

|Colony            | CO  | 300|+15|+0|  1   |  6   | 6 |no   |

|Heavy Colony      | HO  | 600|-30|+0|  2   |  6   | 3 |yes  |

--------------------------------------------------------------

|Light Transport   | LT  | 200|+30|+0|  1   |  6   | 6 |no   |

|Medium Transport  | MT  | 400|+00|+0|  2   |  6   | 3 |no   |

|Heavy Transport   | HT  | 800|-45|+0|  3   |  6   | 2 |no   |

--------------------------------------------------------------

|Outpost           | OP  | 500|+00|+0| n/a  |  0   | 0 |yes  |

|Station           | ST  |1000|-45|+0| n/a  |  0   | 0 |no   |

|Battlestation     | BS  |2000|-75|+0| n/a  |  0   | 0 |no   |

|Starbase          | SB  |3000|-90|+0| n/a  |  0   | 0 |no   |

--------------------------------------------------------------

|Mega Destroyer    | MD  | 750|+00|+0|  2   | 16   | 8 |yes  |

|Mega Cruiser      | MC  |1500|-45|+0|  3   | 12   | 4 |yes  |

|Super Dreadnaught | SD  |2500|-75|+0| 10   | 20   | 2 |yes  |

|Super Carrier     | SV  |2000|-60|+0|  4   | 12   | 3 |yes  |

|Mega Transport    | MT  |1500|-90|+0|  4   |  8   | 2 |yes  |

|Super Colony      | SO  | 800|-45|+0|  3   |  9   | 3 |yes  |

|Warbase           | WB  |4000|-95|+0| n/a  |  0   | 0 |yes  |

--------------------------------------------------------------

---

"Max" is the hull's maximum theoretical speed, calculated in the
absence of any other bonus movement points from other sources
(including from engines, i.e. the unmodded Quantum Engine gives +3,
as does the Solar Sail; a Super Dreadnaught with 20 Quantum Engines
and a Solar Sail III would thus have a net strategic speed of 8).

Some ships can have more engines than they will theoretically
have room for in a viable design; this still works, as there will
be the option to install half-sized engines (actually, multiple
ways to do that are being considered).

ECM modifiers are intended to be scalar to size, currently in
steps of +/- 15, but that could be reduced to steps of 10 (thus,
cutting ECM modifiers by one-third of the above values). The
modifiers might also be for both attack AND defense, representing
both relative agility AND "small target" effects. The bonus would
be scaled down to steps of 10 in this case, PERIOD.

The Last bloc of hulls, all listed as new sizes/types/classes,
are intended to be among the benefits of a new advanced
characteristic, "Megascalar Construction" -- folks who specialise
in building it big, bigger, BIGGEST. As an example, such
technology would seem to match the naval doctrine of the Empire in
Star Wars (hmm, a Battle Moon as a Unique-enhanced Megascalar
benefit might be a nice idea ... Death Star, anyone?). The
enhanced number of engines keeps them competitive with the basic
hull types available to everyone else, though outrunning
comparable-displacement non-megascalar vessels will require a LARGE
investment of engine mass.

Transports, unlike the stock Version, will NOT require you to
fill half or more of their volume with cargo components; they're
slower, and easier to hit, than comparable-sized military hulls ...
but if, for deception's sake, you wish to make an armed "Auxiliary
Warship" on a transport hull, akin to Star Fleet Battles' "Q-Ship"
concept ... you can.

Carriers will still need half of their space occupied by Fighter
Launch Bays.

Overall, I'll try and stretch out the process of getting each
hull type, research-wise, to avoid a "run for the big ships"
effect.

Tech Area concepts:

Organic Manipulation: pretty similar to the stock Version,
with an expanded selection of armor and weaponry. Ship and unit
hulls will be inherently self-repairing / combat-regenerative.
Plague-damage seekers (especially for use on planets) is a
distinct possibility.

Psychic: will likely expand the range of sensor-like effects
available to them, a few engines and shields for flavor, and
hopefully better variety in weaponry effects (the TK beam
might give a one-square push effect, for example ...).

Temporal Technology: Main theme will be "fast, faster,
fastest!" ... ship hulls will have (small) inherent movement
bonusses above and beyond those listed for the basic hulls above.
"Get there before you leave" in a sense. Shields and engines
expanded in variety, largely for flavor.

Crystalline: enhanced range of armors (see below for
preliminary ideas); weapons tweaked (shield-drainers that regen the
firing ships shields, is one idea ... ). Hulls will include
inherent shield-regenerative properties; that special ability will
only of use once shields are known and included, but ...

Religious: big enhancement here. Most armor types will be
replaced (Glyph armor, Sigil armor, Runic armor, that sort of
thing), lots more religious components than JUST the Talisman.
Various shrines, most or all of those in the stock Version will
remain, others might be added.

Megascalar Construction: bigger ships. Bigger fighters
(Star Fleet Battles-esque "PF" or "Fast Patrol" ships too, think
50kT or so fighters ...). Bigger maintenance costs (lol, 'cause of
the costs of the hulls). Probably bigger space yards (but
everyone's getting them anyway). A Megascale Temporal Ship Yard
should be ungodly fast at building things ... but let's hope you
have the economy to PAY for all that building capacity, eh?

Also, better Ringworld/Sphereworld capabilities. Not sooner,
but, smaller relevant parts, bigger options for the end product,
and so on. If it's big, no really big, no really REALLY big
... these guys are the ones to have building it.

Advanced Carriers: better carriers (likely get the same
Carrier hullas the Megascalar guys get), better fighters, better
fighter PARTS, and so on. Minor ability, more to support a chosen
theme than truly make an empire unbeatable.

Advanced Missiles: more and better missiles, a modifier
similar to the Advanced Carriers above. If I can manage it,
shielded missiles ... ?

Microscalar Construction: just a random thought, people who
excel at cramming more into a small space than anyone else would
think possible -- lots of miniaturisation options, lots of multi-
effect "combination" or package-deal items (ECM and combat sensors
in one package? these guys can do it!). Good for folks who
envision a smaller race, perhaps of starfaring gerbils or the like
(EEK! Space Hamsters!).

Some component ideas I've been working on:

code:

---

Organic Armors



Organic Armor I

   mass 15kT

   hp   30kT

   special: regenerate 10hp/turn



Organic Armor II

   mass 15kT

   hp   45kT

   special: regenerate 10hp/turn



Organic Armor III

   mass 15kT

   hp   60kT

   special: regenerate 10hp/turn



Light Chitin I

   mass 20kT

   hp   60kT

   special: regenerate 20hp/turn



Light Chitin II

   mass 20kT

   hp   80kT

   special: regenerate 20hp/turn



Light Chitin III

   mass 20kT

   hp   100kT

   special: regenerate 20hp/turn



Heavy Chitin I

   mass 30kT

   hp   120kT

   special: regenerate 30hp/turn



Heavy Chitin II

   mass 30kT

   hp   150kT

   special: regenerate 30hp/turn



Heavy Chitin III

   mass 30kT

   hp   180kT

   special: regenerate 30hp/turn



Chameleon Skin I

   mass 20kT

   hp   40kT

   special: cloaking level 1

   special: +5% ECM

   special: onlyone per ship effective for cloak/ECM



Chameleon Skin II

   mass 20kT

   hp   60kT

   special: cloaking level 2

   special: +10% ECM

   special: only one per ship effective for cloak/ECM



Chameleon Skin III

   mass 20kT

   hp   80kT

   special: cloaking level 3

   special: +15% ECM

   special: only one per ship effective for cloak/ECM

---

More options; I picture the Organic armor series retaining the
current image, and if I can manage it, shifting to red or brown for
the Light Chitin series, then to a grey or black for the Heavy
Chitin series. The Chameleon, I hope to be able to use a rainbow-
hued organic armor image.

code:

---

Crystalline Armors



Crystal Armor I

   mass 15kT

   hp   20kT

   special: 2 damage from every hit, per armor component,

       are added to current Supplies total

   special: adds 50 supplies capacity



Crystal Armor II

   mass 15kT

   hp   40kT

   special: 4 damage from every hit, per armor component,

       are added to current Supplies total

   special: adds 100 supplies capacity



Crystal Armor III

   mass 15kT

   hp   60kT

   special: 6 damage from every hit, per armor component,

       are added to current Supplies total

   special: adds 150 supplies capacity



Shard Armor I

   mass 20kT

   hp   40kT

   special: Adds 50 shield strength

   special: each hit regenerates shields by 10 points

   special: also requires Shields research



Shard Armor II

   mass 20kT

   hp   60kT

   special: Adds 100 shield strength

   special: each hit regenerates shields by 20 points

   special: also requires Shields research



Shard Armor III

   mass 20kT

   hp   80kT

   special: Adds 150 shield strength

   special: each hit regenerates shields by 30 points

   special: also requires Shields research



Phased Shard Armor I

   mass 50kT

   hp   100kT

   special: Adds 100 phased shield strength

   special: each hit regenerates shields by 20 points

   special: also requires Phased Shields research



Phased Shard Armor II

   mass 50kT

   hp   150kT

   special: Adds 200 phased shield strength

   special: each hit regenerates shields by 40 points

   special: also requires Shields research



Phased Shard Armor III

   mass 50kT

   hp   200kT

   special: Adds 300 phased shield strength

   special: each hit regenerates shields by 60 points

   special: also requires Shields research

---

Hopefully, I'm not alone in feelign that requiring an additional
research field offsets the comparatively-high per-kT hitpoint gain
(counting shield points as well) for these armors. The Resupply
effect of the first should prove interesting; it might let
Crystalline ships foray further into enemy territory early on in
the game, since attacks on them would only re-energise their own
weaponry ...

code:

---

Space Yards, Ringworlds, and Sphere worlds



Temporal Space Yard I, II, and III

   mass 400kT

   special: builds at 150% the rate for default Space Yards,

       extending the temporal=tech build rate advantage into

       space.



Space Dock I, II, and III

   mass: 2,000kT

   special: builds at a rate analogous to planetary facilities

       of similar rating.



Temporal Space Yard I, II, III

   mass: 2,000kT

   special: builds at rate of planetary Temporal Space Yards



the Space Docks might be limited to Megascalar races, I'm not sure yet ...



Megascalar Ringworld Core

   mass: 1,000kT

   special: builds Ringworlds.

      6,000kT each of cable and plate components will build a (100

        spaces) Ringworld - the default size for other races, who

        cannot build bigger Ringworlds.

      12,000kT each of cable and plate components build a (150

        spaces) Large Ringworld.

      18,000kT each of cable and plate components build a (200

        spaces) Mega Ringworld.



Megascalar Sphereworld Core

   mass: 1,000kT

   special: builds Ringworlds.

      20,000kT each of cable and plate components will build a (200

        spaces) Sphereworld - the default size for other races, who

        cannot build bigger Sphereworlds.

      40,000kT each of cable and plate components build a (300

        spaces) Large Sphereworld.

      60,000kT each of cable and plate components build a (400

        spaces) Mega Sphereworld.

---

...

That's all I have actual notes of (well, in presentable form
anyway, heh) component-wise. I would dearly love folk's thoughts
on them; I'm going to have to figure out a way to get the Gold
Version sooner than later, I'm itching to start actually
doing this, testing out various component ideas ...

OH. One more thing: Again, if anyone has suggestions for a name
for the mod ... so far I'm thinking Phoenix, mainly because I
happen to like the sound of the word, and the image of the fiery
bird itself.

(EDIT: sorry, I've tried everything to get the line-lengths back under control ... can't figure out what's wrong ... if this Last try doesn't work I don't know what ele to attempt)

(EDIT again: one Last try, lots of extra carriage-returns inserted ... *sigh* ...)

(EDIT yet again: EUREKA! Found the problems and fixed 'em ...)

[ July 14, 2002, 04:13: Message edited by: Pax ]

[Nodachi]

Looks good so far.

One thing though, Engines per Move must be a whole number. The game will choke on the decimal.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Nodachi:
Looks good so far.

One thing though, Engines per Move must be a whole number. The game will choke on the decimal.

Hmm, thanks for that. I'll revise the table accordingly -- but not here, not tonight. Enough editting of the post already .... at least I've gotten the post into a readable format at Last, lol.

[Spoo]

I like cross-over racial techs (possible example: temporal + psychic = insane attack and defense bonuses). I also like the economics model of the Proportions mod.

Is it possible to include the spaceyard ability as a hull attribute? If so then you could have special construction ships...

[Captain Kwok]

Looks like you have lots of interesting ideas and components.

One thing that I personally dislike is the gross difference in ship sizes. I think one problem that the game has is that smaller ships quickly lose their relevance in the standard game - although your small ships will be faster - the additional firepower of the big ships will more than nullify that advantage. Perhaps adjusting the sizes and mounts to make all ships have similiar power/kT will be more beneficial?

[Pax]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Looks like you have lots of interesting ideas and components.

One thing that I personally dislike is the gross difference in ship sizes. I think one problem that the game has is that smaller ships quickly lose their relevance in the standard game - although your small ships will be faster - the additional firepower of the big ships will more than nullify that advantage. Perhaps adjusting the sizes and mounts to make all ships have similiar power/kT will be more beneficial?

Well, I've been considering (as mentioned somewhere in the mess I called a post, lol) having the ECM modifier count both for attack AND defense. Thus, ships of the same class would be at +/- 0 to each otehr, barring components installed.

However, picture two heavy destroyers against a battleship. Tonnage-wise, the BB has the advantage (50% mroe space, less redundancy in control and supply components). However, the BB has a -45 ECM adjust, and the HD's have a +15 each. So the HD's fire at a net of +60, while the BB fires at a net of -60. Result: the HD's are harder to hit and more accurate ... but lack the outright -punch- when they DO connect.

I hope that, overall, that will result in the hulls being reasonably useful even three or four steps different in size (IOW, it might not take more than say Light Cruisers to match Dreadnaughts, if you roughly match tonnage for tonnage).

And in fact, done right (not in strategic, sadly, which rules out PBW games ...), the very vast difference in speeds might allow smaller ships to harry a larger one, without accepting return fire in any significant volumes.

Hmm, that could actually be a FLAW. heh.

Spoo: once I get the basics of Phoenix done, I might indeed look at a combination Phoenix-Porportions setup ... but that's somethign for the far distant future.

Most of my mod will be tech tree and components/hulls; the economics, aside from specific facilities resulting from the tech tree changes, will remain unchanged in Phoenix.

AFAIK however ... yes, it woudl be possible to buld the Space Yard ability into a hull; an intrigueing idea, that ...

[Krsqk]

First of all, it looks good! I'm definitely interested in seeing the finished product. Now for the specific comments.

RE: Small ship sizes being useless--If you use massive swarms of small ships, you can easily destroy even dreadnaughts. I've used DS with ECM 3 and stealth armor 3--total of +95% defense modifier--in fleets of 20~30 with success. Of course, you will lose ships each battle, and will need to be replaced quickly. Supply may be a problem, too.

RE: Damage to supplies--Would be a neat idea, and I think it's been bounced around before, but I don't think it's possible w/o a hardcode change.

RE: Organic unit damage/shield regen--Game currently doesn't track partial unit damage, so it doesn't regen partial damage either. Auto-regen ship hulls sound cool, though.

RE: New racial traits--I think Megascalar/Microscalar sound great; maybe a nice combo! I love packing out ships with as many gizmos and gadgets as possible, especially extra big ships.

RE: More constructed-world sizes--Mostly eye-candy/fluff, but nice eye-candy and fluff. I also love building worlds.

RE: Space Yard hulls--I think this would be great--especially if adding a SY component causes the build rates to stack like it does with facilities.

Overall, can't wait to see it!

[jimbob]

I particularily like the different organic armors... "chamelion" instead of the inorganic "stealth" armor is a nice touch.

I think from other discussions that crystaline is the least favorite racial trait. The extra supplies thing is good, but perhaps beef it up a little more. I've often thought that dilithium crystals would be a helpful item, yet I've not seen them in any mods to date! Maybe +2 or 3 normal movement for a 5kT component (max one per ship)? Or perhaps +1 or 2 combat movement for capital ships (max one per ship - not that it matters cause 'afterburner' components aren't stackable anyway)?

Like most mods, I'd love to try it... Ideas sound good!

[geoschmo]

Phoenix mod sounds ok, but you may find people think it is a mod by Phoenix-D and end up asking him questions about it instead of you.

What about Pax Mod? Nah, that's not it, but maybe something with Pax in the name.

Pax Modicus
Paxis Mod
Pax Galactica
Pax Man Mod

Geoschmo