The Gorn Imperium

[Pax]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Um, these Gorn are um, Post STNG era. That is why the ships look differant.

Hey look, I did not think that I was going to stir the hornets nest with this set. It is extremely hard to develop a cannon race based upon small images, no referances, and horrible shots. CASE IN POINT

I'm not intending to seem like you've stirred up a hornet's nest; I -like- the shipset you made, it just doesn't say "gorn" to me, not even post-STNG ... there's no design lineage involved,your shipset isn't just "a bit different" ... it's wholly different. NICE, but .... not Gorn.

And as for that image -- it's ONE image, out of three (with each one having further details under "back"). The CA, CL, DD, and DN (Heavy Cruiser, Light Cruiser, Destroyer, and Dreadnaught, respectively) form a resonably representative cross-section of what Gorn ships look like.

In fact, the front/back scans are of the smallc ards included with the miniatures, way back in the late 70's or early 80's. The "back" portion indicates some of the design and/or intended use concerns of the Gorn, WRT why and how it was built the way it was.

The --> Gorn Heavy Cruiser <-- in fact is a clear indication of the general look / feel / style of Gorn ships.

As is the --> Gorn Destroyer <--.

And the --> Gorn Dreadnaught <-- is quite clear; a good clean scan, even.

On top of which, the Gorns are among those SFB races who DO have a working link to a color PDF guide for miniatures painting: --> Clearly-illustrated PDF for paintign Gorn ship miniatures <--. That one includes the CL, DD, DN, and BC, so it's got FOUR hulls.

Taken all together, I fail to see how those five images couldn't give one a feel for the style of the Gorn race's ships. Did you go out of your way to find the least clear image ... ?

Interpretation is fine; but IMO you need to accept -mild- criticism, which is what my prior post was. There's no excuse for not doing fifteen or twenty minutes of poking about a web search engine to get some prior images, and seeign if you can make a shipset out of the style presented there.

Originally written by Baron Munchausen
But really, does it matter if this Gorn set is not just like SFB? Who said SFB was cannon? Did a Gorn ship ever appear in the actual Trek series or movies? I don't think so. Which means the race is open to interpretation.

SFB -was- once -the- canon source; Paramount has made a habit of breaking prior contracts ... their legal department is big enough that no smallfry will challenge them,it'd be too costly. ADB originally bought hte rights *in perpetuity* to produce "official" blueprints for Trek ships of all sorts ... so yeah, technically, anything with ADB's stamp on it, is as canon as canon gets.

Originally written by geoschmo
Uh, dude. Take a pill, really. Where exactly does Atrocities claim this is a Gorn shipset based on Star Fleet Battles? Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see it anywhere. And unless he did, then your rant is not only a bit excessive, but totally uncalled for.

*sigh*

The Gorn -are- an SFB race; Paramount touched on them once or so; ADB (Amarillo Design Bureau), through their publisher TFG (Task Force Games), produced all the information on the Gorn not presented in that one, singular (IIRC) episode of TOS which evenmentioend the Gorn, and those episodes of the cartoon series which might have featured them -- in fact, IIRC, it is from that cartoon series (Paramount-made, so as canon as anythign else they made) that the style and overall look of the ships is from.

I have a bit of a pet peeve about seeing a race billed as such-and-such from Star Trek ... I open it,look, and ... it's not that race. Often, as is the case with this shipset, it's a GREAT set of ships. But it's not what it's advertised to be.

I also asked Atrocities NOT to take the rant personally -- in fact multiple times I expressed that I liked the SHIPS, but didn't think they were GORN ships; this is a -general- pet peeve of mine and that rant was directed in general to makers of shipsets.

I fyou think that's so horrible a thing ... *shrug* not my problem.

Star Fleet Battles, while a great resource, is not the sum total and canon of the Star Trek universe.

In the absence of sources that have greater provenance, however, it bears strongly on the matter at hand. And since there -aren't- any other available sources as to teh style of Gorn hulls ...

Now, one Last time, in case people missed it: I don't belittle Atrocities' work in creating a gorgeous shipset; I am only highly dismayed that yet again, it bears zero resemblance to any prior depictions of Gorn ships. Were this cut of whole cloth, and not claiming to be based on an established SF race ... I'd've applauded, LOUDLY.

But when a shipset is based on an established SF race, it well behooves the shipsets prospective author to dosome background research, and see if there's an established / accepted "style" for said race's ships.

After all, one could do a Star Wars shipset that looked NOTHIGN liek Star Wars ("TiE Fighters" that looked nothing like in the movies, etc). Wouldn't a Star Wars fan be in his rights to point out that possibly-minor failing?

[Andrés]

Check Atraikius' Version in the Old Scenario forum

[ July 20, 2002, 05:39: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

[Atrocities]

Pax, I really like the fact that you stand up for what you like.

After looking over what you have provided on the Gorn, I would have to say that I would rather not have used the SFB stuff. To be honest, and I mean no offense, those designes just look way to dated. They are TOS era, and not STNG era. Ghost has a nice set of Gorn ships that kinda match what you've posted, but now that I have had time to think about it, I am glad that I did not follow cannon, even if I didn't know about it, because I wanted to make my "own" Gorn, not rehash out dated designes.

This debate is like arguing over TOS ships verse STNG. They are some 80+ years apart.

If you were to take things as such, then it would stand to reasone that even the Gorn would evolve and use new technology, designes, and concepts.

The one thing I have to say about the Gorn is this, no one else elected to develop the race, so your stuck with my view of it until someone else comes along and does a better job.

In that time, I sincerely hope that it is used and enjoyed.

Remember, this is SEIV, not SFB. Hell I might even have a few of those lead ships from FASA floating around too. Just try and accept the set as a Gorn set for now. Hell I remember when the Enterprise D was laid upon us, NO ONE, like it, but look now.

[ July 20, 2002, 06:52: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[PvK]

Personally, I still think all the new computer-made TNG ships look lame. I much prefer the TOS designs and TOS movie models. Some SFB designs are also good (Gorns, Klingons, Lyrans, a few others), though a lot of those are kind of lame (Hydrans, Kzinti, ISC) in my opinion too. I just mean stylistically, and for my own personal tastes. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't like the TNG stuff, but to me it's lame.

(Shields up)

PvK

[PvK]

The Gorn shipset here is really very good, I think. Ya it's not an SFB Gorn set (except the portrait), and I do really like SFB Gorn designs, but this shipset is unique and very cool.

PvK

[Pax]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Pax, I really like the fact that you stand up for what you like.

After looking over what you have provided on the Gorn, I would have to say that I would rather not have used the SFB stuff. To be honest, and I mean no offense, those designes just look way to dated. They are TOS era, and not STNG era. Ghost has a nice set of Gorn ships that kinda match what you've posted, but now that I have had time to think about it, I am glad that I did not follow cannon, even if I didn't know about it, because I wanted to make my "own" Gorn, not rehash out dated designes.

Now see, that's a reasoning I can accept (still wish you'd made something in keepign with the SFB / cartoon series examples, but ...).

Still; one thing to note is: even between TOS, Movie, and TNG+ era ... tehre is a certain design "lineage" visible in the Federation ships. TNG or TOS, Federation ships still tend to have a saucer section, a secondary hull, and engine nacelles.

While some updating overall would be appreciated ... IMO the Gorn TNG+ era ships woudl still be a pair of ovoid-ish saucers and a connecting "boom" type hull, with nacelles over-and-uncer rather than the more Federation-esque "to either side" configuration.

This debate is like arguing over TOS ships verse STNG. They are some 80+ years apart.

If you were to take things as such, then it would stand to reasone that even the Gorn would evolve and use new technology, designes, and concepts.

Ttue, but again, design lineage. While a TNG Klingon cruiser, a Movei Klingon Cruiser, and a TOS Klingon Cruiser may all look different, there are also many many points of commonality in appearance; a "doctrine of style" inherent to ships that make them Klingon.

The one thing I have to say about the Gorn is this, no one else elected to develop the race, so your stuck with my view of it until someone else comes along and does a better job.

Better job ov modeling ships? I don't expect that, your ships are -very- nice looking; my only real complaint is, they don't fit with prior-established Gorn designs' style. And I've only a problem with "prior style" when an established SF identity -- be it Gorn, Klingon, Kzin, BattleTech's Clan Smoke Jaguar, the Vorlons, or what have you -- when an established SF identity carries with it certain expectations from the fan base ... and those expectations aren't even given a nod in passing.

Still, not a dig at you personally, but ... ovoid-conect-ovoid, with over/under engine configurations and small winglets for weapons, is the basic, essential "what makes a Gorn ship" foundation a Gorn set -should- IMO be made from, -if- the set is to be called Gorn.

A suggestion: rname the race "Gorn TNG" ... at least then classic-ships fans like myself won't be unduly disappointed when we discover yet another race that falls short of our expectations / hopes / desires.

In that time, I sincerely hope that it is used and enjoyed.

Remember, this is SEIV, not SFB. Hell I might even have a few of those lead ships from FASA floating around too. Just try and accept the set as a Gorn set for now. Hell I remember when the Enterprise D was laid upon us, NO ONE, like it, but look now.

I'll accept it as a great set ... but I'm sorry, I cannot accept it as a Gorn set.

...

It could've been worse; you could've tried to do the Tholians,with the same lackof acknoledgement ot prior, established style for the Tholian Holdfast ships. I'm a rabid Tholian fan ... in SFB, I'll play Tholians in preference to ANYthing else, even the "simulator races" with their funky, "simulator-only" gizmos ...

[Pax]

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
Check Atraikius' Version in the Old Scenario forum

Thanks ... I'll check that AND his Kzinti out.

[Atraikius]

Atrocities - No, don't pull it. If you would like, I could e-mail you the AI that I have for the Gorns I'm working on to use with your set.

[Atraikius]

Atrocities - didn't you use this set for a different race at one time (with a more blueish color)?

Gorns - I've played SFB and then SFC for too long to really think of them as Gorns (still like the ships though). Like the Kzinti's, the TOS Version of the Gorns doesn't have much variation between sizes, and I just don't really like the SFC look for them. I'm still working on the TOS set Andres provided the like for, but haven't been able to do much with it recently because of a severe lack of time. Hopefully will have it done sometime in the near future.

[Atrocities]

Yes. I developed the set over a year ago for the Gorn, but opted to use them for the Starwolf instead because I wanted to update that race. I love the Starwolf set, it is my favorite set. I really had to do some thinking before committing to go ahead with the Gorn set.

Atraikius's Gorn set is more to the SFB's and uses the Ghost TOS sets. It did not have a Gorn Race image so I was under the impression that it was a differant Gorn set. I did not connect the ship images to Ghosts Fleet Doc until today. I am sorry Atraikius. Me bad.

I will pull the NASY Gorn set if it is not wanted. Otherwise, think of it as the "Advanced" Gorn set from STNG era.

[ July 22, 2002, 12:13: Message edited by: Atrocities ]