Anomaly reports

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Richard_H

@ Suhiir - haven't got to that class yet (I don't think!). But my main concern this time around is whether or not all Predator teams agree with each other. Whether or not they agree with RL is not (yet) something I'm addressing. But I shall

Richard H

My apologies, I was just thinking "anomaly" and failed to consider the the purpose ("agree with each other").

[Richard_H]

@ Suhiir - not a problem. i've put it on my "to do" list (P.196 )

@ Andy - even without my written sources, I'm entering the joust here. First, I haven't seen a single web source (and yes, I read Russian, albeit slowly!) that suggests that the PK version accommodated anything less than 20 pax. Secondly, I've attached a photo of the hatches on a PK - if one thinks about this logically, what can adding armour do to reduce troop capacity? Answer - not a lot. I've also attached (and I know this is iffy, but I Googled it in cyrillic characters, so presumably it's authentic) a photo of a modelled interior of a PK. Now, if the bank of 4 seats on the left take 2 bums each, far right takes 3 and near right takes 4, you end up with 15 - which agrees with nobody! However, if the bank of 4 takes 3 bums each, plus 4 plus 5, you're pretty close to 20 (plus 1 guy saying 'spasibo Tovarishch' for the extra room).

However, the seating layout is nowhere near what Michal suggests. I await a proper shot of the interior of a PK.

My 2 cents worth.

Richard H

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Richard_H

However, the seating layout is nowhere near what Michal suggests. I await a proper shot of the interior of a PK.

The layout of benches in this model agrees with a drawing in manual (eg. here http://army.lv/ru/btr-50/2054/3827 ). Unfortunately, there is no information how many troops should seat on one bench. I wrote, that side benches were for 4 troops, which is the only information "officially" given, but it was about BTR-50P, and a specific arrangement might differ. Considering different length of benches in BTR-50PK, I'd say, that 3 troops seat on each side bench, 5+5 troops on longer benches on the left, and 4 troops on somewhat shorter bench on the right. In front, apart from driver's seat, should be seats for vehicle's commander and section commander.

Regards,
Michal

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

The layout of benches in this model agrees with a drawing in manual (eg. here http://army.lv/ru/btr-50/2054/3827 ). Unfortunately, there is no information how many troops should seat on one bench. I wrote, that side benches were for 4 troops, which is the only information "officially" given, but it was about BTR-50P, and a specific arrangement might differ. Considering different length of benches in BTR-50PK, I'd say, that 3 troops seat on each side bench, 5+5 troops on longer benches on the left, and 4 troops on somewhat shorter bench on the right. In front, apart from driver's seat, should be seats for vehicle's commander and section commander.

Regards,
Michal

there are a couple of pics of the open-top early version here
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...tr-50-pics.htm

It's fairly packed, and the guys are in parade dress - so no field packs and stuff etc. But I can only make perhaps 12 (3 rows of 4) or maybe 14 in back on trying to count noses in these lo-res shots.

So, I really doubt 20 in the early open top, myself - unless some were supposed to hide in the engine bay ?

They were used in the early 2-vehicle platoon as half-platoon carriers though, but not for very long apparently. "20" was probably a theoretical number (and 3 rows of seats does not divide easily into 20) - unless they were jam-packed in like sardines with one row of 6 in between 2 of seven?.

So - the BTR 50 carry capacity can remain as we have ATM.

Andy

[Pibwl]

You'll do what you wish. I only say, that the official manual clearly states, that BTR-50P/PK is fit to transport 20 armed soldiers. It's obvious, that in normal service it carried actually less, depending on organization, and for all 20 it sure wouldn't be comfortable. I can't imagine travelling long on benches without backrests even for half of that... 14 + commander travelled normally in the Czechoslovak army. Note, that photos show parade configuration, with standing soldiers (or seating on some higher transversal benches), and they are meant to represent only its section, not full capacity. Five longitudinal benches were a fact - if four soldiers sat on each, it makes 20 (or 3+5+5+4+3).

I can't see a reason, why don't we change a capacity of this APC to real guaranteed one, even, if only 12 or so troops will be normally packed into it. But, as I've said, you do what you wish.

Regards.
Michal

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Richard_H

Secondly, I've attached a photo of the hatches on a PK - if one thinks about this logically, what can adding armour do to reduce troop capacity? Answer - not a lot.

Richard H

Not entirely true.
If a vehicle is amphibious (or an aircraft/helo for that matter) adding armor can decrease the potential cargo load thus troop carrying capacity.

My irrelevant to the discussion 2 cents

As Mobhack pointed out, the manufacturer often base troop carry capacity on troops no field gear, thus the "real" carry capacity is often less.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

To the BTR-50 APC variant C2 P20 easy to support.
1. From the USA Infantry Training course. Note the reference sources at the top of the second ref.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...in0534_top.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...n0534/lsn2.htm
I believe I've posted this a year or two ago in the APC thread as source info for you "game designers" as I remember Don used it and still might as a ref source. Glad to do so again. And a note about JANE's here, the editions we bought were not necessarily the one you can buy on the open market-savvy!?! Some have said I served with Capt. Jack Sparrow anyway...

2. Did I ever mention a lot of their info comes from some Russian guys? Anyway always a great go too site and very accurate and and first to report on equipment regularly.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/btr_50.htm

3. Also another good site almost on par with globalsecurity.org.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/btr-50.htm

4. Also a very good site and he's not afraid to list his references note these at the bottom.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/cv/inf/BTR-50.html

5. Again source refs at the bottom.
http://www.armscontrol.ru/atmtc/Arms...t_Vehicles.htm

6. Now we can address the added armor and personnel issue as it concerns the BTR-50PK this version has the armored roof with C2 P8. This version was not as numerous as the the 50 or 50P ones as the BTR-60 was soon to replace it. But I don't want you to take my word for it, better to take the word of the company that made them for the Soviets in the first place and does the modernization work on them now. I think some might recognize this source. Note KMDB uses Crew 10 across the top of the table.
http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/btr50.php
I'm almost willing to bet the product line in the left corner might just have some useful info in it, just a guess on my part though!?!

This was a warm up for my work to come and an exercise to make a point. Those that "know" me understand the point I made here, and some will never get it. No Wiki, Blogs or other such and I still have some more but I'm ready for bed. I did have a great day with family, a couple of old shipmates and friends, I hope you will as well!


Regards,
Pat

[Richard_H]

Onwards & upwards - the paras.

Class 96 – Paratroops

Switzerland 310 have Size 1, and Crew 4.

6-man units are evenly split: Belgium 534 & 535 and Libya 430-432 are Size 0, Finland 490-496 are Size 1.

Norway 412 has 100 Weapon 1 rounds. I only mention it because it’s the first time I’ve seen a 100-rd small arm.

Norway 409 & 410 and Greece 307 have 16 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 9 Crew.

UK 104 & 105 have 30 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 8 Crew.

Greece 305 has 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 9 Crew.

Canada 487 & 488 have 20 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 8 Crew.

Russia 83 & 84 have 32 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 7 Crew.


Class 97 – Para Support

Sweden 238, 239, 242 & 243 have Weight 1 – they are all 3-man units.

Sweden 237 has 4 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 3 crew.


Class 98 – Para Light Infantry

Belgium 540, 541 & 549 have Size 0, Crew 6.

Portugal 553 & 554 have Size 1, Crew 5. Other similar (Portuguese) have Size 0. Admittedly these are the only ones with 2 60mm mortars.

Red 457 has 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 6 Crew.


Class 99 – Para Medium Infantry

Canada 471 & 472 have 16 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 10 Crew.


Class 100 – Para SMG

As this is only used by France, and France has no Class 97 Units, you could save yourselves a class here. I don’t know how difficult it would be, but personally I’d love to see another cavalry class . . .(dream on :>)

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Motorcycles

Class 49 – Motorcycles

Size – 2 schools of thought here, by the look of it. One that says ‘units of 4 men or less should always be size 0’, and one that goes for size 1. I know I made a case earlier for size 0 small bicycle units but unless it has a highly baffled exhaust, you can’t hide the noise of a motorcycle, and in dry conditions it will also kick up dust. So I’d favour size 1.
The size 0 units are:- Italy 290 & 291, Switzerland 502-504 and 641-647.
Sweden 73 is size 2 (2-man unit).

Italy 290 & 291 have no Lift Capacity. Of all the units here, I would have thought they were more able than most to carry bodies (although maybe not with 3 crew).

Switzerland 642 & 643 have Lift Capacity 3 – do I assume sidecars?

Poland 780, N.Korea 655, E.Germany 239 & Czech 201 have Lift Capacity 106. 3 motorbikes towing a gun – hmmm. Or do they need this to carry their Mech Scouts?

Israel 379, Switzerland 502-504 and 644-647 all have RoF less than 9, even though they have small arms as their primary weapon.

Mujahadeen 471, E.Germany 655-658, Switzerland 502-504 & 641-647 all have Weight less than 10. Does the same rule apply to motorcycles as to other vehicles, ie minimum 10? From the look of Class 187, the answer is no.

E.Germany 655-658 are 1-man, unarmed units. Don’t think I’ll be buying any in a hurry . . .


Class 187 – Light Motorcycles

Size 0 units – Afghanistan 605-610, Italy 292-294.

Jordan 485 has Lift Capacity 2, all others have 0.

Cuba 510-513 & Portugal 313 have 6 Weapon 2 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 Crew.

Uruguay 260-262 have 8 Weapon 2 and 8 Weapon 3 (both Hand Grenade) rounds, and 5 Crew.

Portugal 314 has 6 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 4 Crew.


Class 188 – Heavy Motorcycles

Sweden 72 has Weight 10. All others apart from the Quad Bikes have 0.

S.Africa 295-297 have 10 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds, and 9 Crew.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

I've just tested the Czech motorcycles - they load fine with a Lift Capacity of just 6. As the other oobs I mentioned appear to be clones, I'm assuming they will do likewise.

Richard H