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  #1  
Old May 19th, 2013, 05:17 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Off-map artillery

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG View Post

And while I see you are including every gun even if it's "OK" by your data it only makes wading through the data slower than if the good ones were on a separte list ( or not included at all ) and the "problem" ones were kept isolated becasue the very first thing I'm going to do when I sit down to start looking at this is delete all the ones marked "OK"...... so not including the "good" ones will save us both some time
As you wish. Although I did it for three main reasons: 1) I wanted to indicate, that I didn't forget to check such gun; 2) I wanted to put the figures, so you can verify; 3) sometimes I'm not sure if it should be made even up or down.

One correction as for sources: "Light and Medium Field Artillery" WW2 Fact Files is by Chamberlain/Gardner, not Hogg, as I wrote.

As for German #65 10.5cm leFH16, I've found, that these authors wrote 11km, but other sources, including Engelmann (German), credit it with no more, than 9+ only. So 200 is justified, as I've written (now it has 204)

As for 10.5cm leFH 18 - it has 202, and I've written "pretty OK", but I'm afraid it is too much. Only leFH 18M and leFH 18/40 models introduced 12.3 km range, but I didn't find precise info, when they appeared. The photos of these guns (with a muzzle brake) come mostly from 1941 onwards (if they are dated). Basic model leFH18 had only 10.6 km range, and it should be 201 - the difference might be important against US 105mm M2 FH or 75mm Mle 1897 with 11.1-11.4km or 25pdr with 12.2km.

Michal
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  #2  
Old May 19th, 2013, 06:05 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Off-map artillery

Japan

Ranges according to Taki's page http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/artillery.htm, in case of 75-105mm guns Fact Files give similar values

36 75mm Type 38 FH (improved) - 208, real 11.5km = 202 (11.9 in Fact Files)
45 75mm Type 90 FG - 208, real 13.9km = 204 (according to Fact Files even 14.9km, but Japanese sources might be better)
71 105mm Type91 FH - 207, real 10.8km = 201
72 105mm Type92 FG - 214, real 18.2km = 208

79 150mm Type96 FH - 209, real 11.9km = 202
80 150mm Type38 FH - 208, real 5.9km = shouldn't be off-map...?
103 140mm Type 3 - 210 - ? if it's naval gun, pretty correct (used in coastal emplacement in the game)
104 150mm Type89 FG - 214, real 18.1km = 208

Poland

I use mainly Polish book by A. Konstankiewicz, 2003, basing partly on manuals. Part of guns are British or French.

33 75mm vz.97 FG - 203, real 11.4km = 201/202 (sources for French Mle 1897 usually give 11.1km). Correct name is "wz.97"

63 25 Pounder GH - 202 OK

64 75mm vz.02 FG - 202, real 11km = 201. Correct name is "wz.02/26" or "02/26 FG" - this is not the Russian 76.2mm gun wz.02 (obr.1902), which had a lower range, but its 75mm modification.

67 105mm wz.13 - 202, real 12.5km (Polish data), 12km (Chamberlain) = 202/3 - it was French Mle 1913 (I suggest name "wz.13 FG")

68 105mm wz.29 - 206, real 15.5km = OK (I suggest name wz.29 FG)

70 100mm Skoda FH - 200, real 10 km = OK (I suggest official designation "wz.14/19" or "14/19 FH")

71 105mm M2 FH - 207, real 11.1km = 201 (US gun)

73 105mm Canet - 200, real 9.5km = OK (coastal gun only in the game, in fact should be 100mm Canet - http://archive.is/hdZK ).
Name of unit 237 "105mm A Nadbrze" should be corrected as well.
By the way, such abbreviation of Polish name "Artyleria Nadbrzeżna" doesn't make much sense - it's like: "105mm Coas A", hard to understand even by the Polish. If you want to keep it, better would be: "A.Nadbrz."

74 152mm wz.30 FH - 208, real 22km or more = 212 (should be named Gun - it was coastal arty. Same remark as for #236 unit's name)

76 7.2in Howitzer - 211, real 15.5km = 206 (British)
96 120mm wz.1878 - 204, real 12.4km = 202/203 (better name is 120mm wz.78/31 or 120mm 78/09/31 - full designation was wz.1878/09/31)

102 4.5in Field Gun - 214, real 18.8 km = 209 (British)

103 8in Howitzer - 209, real 11.2km = 201 (British)

104 155mm M2 FG - 220, real 23.2km = 213 (US)

106 220 mm wz.32 - 205, real 13.5km = 204 (I suggest name "220mm wz.32 Mrt")

110 155mm Schneider - 202, real 11.2km = pretty OK (I suggest official designation wz.17 FH)

136 4.5in Howitzer - 202, real 6.6 km = not off-map?

234 194mm GPF Gun - 200, real 18.3km = 208 (Hogg's booklet, French gun)

248 5.5in Field Gun - 213, real 16.5 km (light shell) = 207
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  #3  
Old September 25th, 2013, 03:28 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Off-map artillery

Romania

Info is based upon this Romanian page http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?language=ro&section=18 and Chamberlain/Gardner.

For guns already analysed in their "mother" oobs, I give a model in a first place.

31 75mm vz.28 FG - 165 - real 13.1km = 203!
(according to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=305 and Chamberlain).
In fact vz.28 had long L/40 barrel and on this Romanian page it is quoted among field guns (it was regarded a mountain gun by Skoda, and it was a twin to to Yugoslavian 76mm vz.28).
The only unit that uses it is 134 mountain gun, from 5/44 only - I don't know why.
It seems, that it should be Artillery class, used maybe from some mid-30s (no precise info), and icon should have long barrel, eg. 2112

33 75mm vz.15 FG - 140 - it's on-map, though, but according to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=323 its range was 8250 m = 165
(BTW: unit 395 76mm Mtn Gun should have icon 2109, like unit 133)

35 75mm Krupp FG - 200 - likely OK (model 1907/12, data unknown)
(BTW: unit 392 should have single-tail icon 2122, like unit 145 with the same gun)

36 76mm M1936 FH - 207 - Soviet F-22 M.36 = 204 (13.6 km)
37 75mm M1897 FG - 203 - French 75 = 201/202 (11+km)
(BTW: icon of units 143 and 394 should be longer-barrel 2112, like in the French oob)

39 76mm ZIS-3 FH - 208 - Soviet Zis-3 M.42 = 204 (13.3 km)
43 76mm Putilov FG - 200 - pretty OK (Russian M.02 gun)
(BTW: units 144 and 393 should have icon 2111 - unit 144 now uses 2122, but it should differentiate from 75mm Krupp using 2122 as well)

63 105mm vz.40/43 - 213 - real 11 km = 201 (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=801)

64 100mm vz.16 FH - 202 - old Skoda mountain howitzer - according to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=327 only 7.7km

65 105mm leFH 16 - 203 - German leFH-16 = 200 (9+ km)

66 105mm Krupp FH - 200. According to a quoted page, apart from md.1916, which is probably leFH16, only two models of Krupp 105 mm were used: md. 1898/09 and md. 1912, both with lousy range of 6+ km, what should make them on-map. I don't know, why this old gun is used from 1943 only (units 176,177) - probably it should be from 1/30.

67 100mm vz.14 FH - 203 - Skoda = 200 (9.3km)

69 100mm vz.30 FH - 207 - real 16km = 206 (Skoda gun, no info on Romanian service in Chamberlain's book, but a quoted page lists vz.30, without details).
Newer Skoda md.34 also had 16 km - http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=313

70 122mm M10-30 FH - 207, real 8.9km = no more, than 200 (Russian sources). Name should be changed to M10/30. Romanian page http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=319 even gives 7.6km range..

71 105mm mle.36 FH - 213 - real 16km = 206 (http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=310 and Chamberlain).

74 105mm leFH 18 - 202 - OK
BTW: unit 140 should have icon 2125 like in German oob

75 105mm mle.13 FH - 203 - OK (French)

End of part I - there's too much. I also wrote some comments as for units, because I probably won't review Romania in detail.

Michal
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  #4  
Old September 26th, 2013, 06:12 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: Off-map artillery

Romania part 2

76 107mm mle.10/12 - 209
- I don't know what it is. A caliber suggests, that it is Russian obr.10, but did Romania use them? They are not mentioned on a quoted page. They would have to capture a number during WW1. Anyway, 107 mm obr.10 had max range 12+ km, just like French 105 mm mle.13 = 202/3

78 105mm GebH 40 - 212 - GebH 40 = 203 (12.6 km)
Note, that this Romanian page doesn't list GebH 40, but lists Bohler 105mm mountain howitzer with extraordinary range of 16.6km http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=800

79 150mm vz.34 FH - 212 - real 15 km = 205 http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=321

80 152mm M10-30 FH - 208
A question is, what it is supposed to be (available from 1942). 152mm obr.1910/30 was a gun with a range of 17 km = 207, but it was rare even in Soviet service (152 in 1936). More typical was obr.1910/34, also with a range 17 km.
This Romanian page lists 152mm md.10/30 as a field howitzer, not gun, but with no details http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?language=en&section=18
But the Russians had 152mm howitzers obr.09/30 and 10/37, according to "Artillery of SSSR in WW2", both with around 10km range - 200. (Obr.10/30 was also a designation of 122mm howitzer).

Same thing is for the Soviet oob - I haven't noticed the problem earlier, giving range 17 km for 004 152mm M1910/30. But it seems, that it should be howitzer 09/30 with 200 range (and the picture suggests so). There is no other early 152mm howitzer in the oob.
However, there could be available also 152mm gun 1910/30, from 1/30, to give Soviets long range heavy artillery, which they had from a beginning.

81 120mm D-B M1878 - 203 - real 12.4km = OK

109 150mm vz.14 FH - 200 - no data, but low value seems OK.

110 155mm FC16 S - 202
- if it's Schneider mle.17 field gun, than it's 17.3km = 207/8
http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=339

111 4.5inch FG - 200
- a question is, if it is 4.5in Field Gun (real 18.8 km = 209 - but from where would they take them?) or 4.5in Howitzer, which is on-map (6.6 km - mentioned with the British oob).
Icon of unit 141 has long barrel, although the photo is howitzer.

Michal
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  #5  
Old September 26th, 2013, 06:38 PM

PvtJoker PvtJoker is offline
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Default Re: Off-map artillery

64 100mm vz.16 FH - 202 - old Skoda mountain howitzer - according to http://www.worldwar2.ro/arme/?article=327 only 7.7km

67 100mm vz.14 FH - 203 - Skoda = 200 (9.3km)

These are basically the same gun, both Skoda WW1 howitzers. Both had the same length gun tube and had at least 48 degrees maximum elevation (in fact the vz.16 had 70 degrees). The range with original Austrian ammo was probably closer to the 8 than 9 km, although there were different shells (light & heavy) for these guns even in WW1 before the Italians got their hands on them. SO, it's possible that the 7.7 km figure is with heavy and 9.3 km with the light shell.

Which reminds me:

Quote from Wikipedia.it (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0k...z._1914/1916):

Quote:
Il cannone da montagna (modello 16) era scomponibile in tre carichi per il traino animale su carrelli a due ruote, utilizzando una sola pariglia. Le altre differenze con il modello 14 erano date dalla bocca da fuoco ed affusto alleggeriti, dalla sala accorciata e dalle ruote di piccolo diametro per permettere il movimento su strade con carreggiata ridotta, culla con gli orecchioni arretrati (che quindi richiedeva equilibratori irrobustiti) e scudo scomponibile. Per la scomposizione del pezzo una squadra di 15 uomini impiegava circa 20 minuti[1].
Original source is Filippo Cappellano: Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito nella Seconda Guerra Mondiale, Albertelli Edizioni Speciali, Parma 1998, ISBN 88-87372-03-9

The range given at Wikipedia.it (9800 m) is most likely with improved Italian 1930s ammunition.

About the 105/32 gun as modified by the Italians: max range was 13640 m. Max. range for the original Skoda 104mm gun was 12700 m according to Italian sources.

Hogg is a little hit and miss when it comes to anything not from the "big four" in WW2 (and some Soviet stuff as well), so I would take his numbers with a little grain of salt for anything not made in the US, UK or Germany. This is not to say he wasn't an excellent researcher, but he did make mistakes like everyone else.

And oh, first post on this forum. Just started to play SPWW2 again after a long pause and couldn't keep me eyes off the OOB files and do a "little" fact checking. Major time waster, almost worse than PowerPoint!
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  #6  
Old September 26th, 2013, 06:51 PM

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Default Re: Off-map artillery

109 150mm vz.14 FH - 200 - no data, but low value seems OK.

The same as Italian 149/13 howitzer. Skoda WW1, built in large numbers. Original designation 15cm Feldhaubitze M.14 Maximum range 7,9 km with original ammo. (8,8 km with Italian).

Don't worry, you won't find it in the Italian OOB, which is just a "little" off when it comes to artillery pieces... I am currently working on a custom OOB with corrections. I could report the artillery stuff here, although it would be long like your recent posts, but there is a lot of other errors there as well, including some fantasy vehicles (no, I don't mean just the Semovente 155 which is quite correctly labeled as such).
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