Polish OOB2 corrections/suggestions (v.6)

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

408 CKM wz.25 Pl - it should be original 8mm wz.14 Hotchkiss rather (there were still 2600 wz.14 in 1939 and only 1200 of wz.25, half of them as TMGs).

Weapon #121 should have kill=5 like weapon #100 and should be named 8mm wz.25 HMG (or MMG - though in Poland all were classified as "heavy"). BTW, kill 7 of wz.28 MMG is not justified.

Michal........perhaps you could explain why on one hand you are telling me that unit 408 should be the " original 8mm wz.14 Hotchkiss " then in the next line tell me to change weapon 121 to 8mm wz.25 HMG when unit 408 is the only unit weapon 121 is used in ?

[Pibwl]

I must have done it in case wz.25 MMG isn't removed - or I didn't check the users, only indicated what's wrong with this weapon...

edit: I probably made a mistake - it should be naturally 8mm wz.14, not wz.25. Sorry.

Unfortunately, the issue of Hotchkisses MMG in 1939 isn't well researched (and only in March there is announced a new book on the subject). What is sure is, that:
1) Hotchkiss was least popular MMG in 1939 (after wz.30 and Maxim wz.08), used probably only by some of second line Obrona Narodowa units and some militia,
2) wz.25 was less popular, than wz.14 (apart from TMG use).

BTW: the only #690 Renault NC-27 was armed with #12 37mm wz.18 L21, not TMG (ammo load like FT-17?).

Michal

[Pibwl]

I've managed to find a decent photo of Polish pre-war 81mm mortar.

Current photo pm30563 shows probably a British one, judging from helmets, although it's hard to say. If you don't find it useful, skip it.

[Pibwl]

Sorry to bother you, but I've fought about one addition. There are reports of using molotov cocktails in 9/39 - both by civilian volunteers (eg. during a defence of Grodno against the Red Army) and in rare cases by troops. However, I have no idea how to implement it, since it wasn't standard issue (it might be similar to other countries).
I think, that there might be squads of several men, maybe armed with pistols (volunteer tank hunter militia) - and maybe an infantry squad with molotovs and rarity 1 or 3.

Michal

[blazejos]

I also heard about using Molotov cocktails in 1939 btw. they were invented during Spanish civil war.

according to this discussion http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=34280 unfortunately in polish only but I try wrote summary here they were use rather in second part of September campaign when situation start to be more desperate. They were use against soviet and German tank especially in town fighting examples Grodno, Wilno, Białystok, Pińsk, Kowel. Is know story about 2psk (Wołyńska BK)[cavalry brigade] in 3/4 of September during fight near Kamieńsk use this bootless. They destroy 30 tanks and 16 cars from 1DPanc. gen. Hans Schmidt. 49 Huculski (Mountain infantry) destroy many vehicles from SS "Germania" with use of Molotov in last days of September. In book about Army "Prusy" on page 123 there is info about infantry company equipped with Molotov against tanks. In 9th of September Polish high command release instruction for fighting with tanks. There are mentioned IED build from mines and bootless with fuel. In book "Wojna Polsko-Sowiecka 1939", s. 89 was mentioned that in 11th before soviets starts war companies on eastern border in that area has a training in use of Molotov against tanks based on experience from first days of war. There is also story from Army "Pomorze" that they use such Bootle's when they spend all grenades they were use in defence of Koronowo near Bydgoszcz in 2th of September. I can said that Molotov wasn't standard equipment of polish pre-war units but they start to be used more intensive during September as campaign progress. I also herd that soviets tanks in 17th because they progress so fast often they attacking without infantry in narrow streets of towns in eastern Poland often were welcomed with Molotov's falling from windows on their engines.