Italy OOB 34 corrections/suggestions (v.8.1)

[Pibwl]

Small supplement to truck-mounted artillery

11 Semovente CA 20 - it doesn't seem, that light AA guns were designated as Semovente (SP-gun). Apparently they were rather known as Autocannone (gun truck). If we don't name it with a specific name, eg. Ford F15 20/65, then I suggest to name it Autocannone 20.

Fords with 20mm seem most popular in desert warfare, but 20mm guns were also put on light trucks AS37, and medium trucks SPA-38 (mentioned) and SPA Dovunque 35 - photo at: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPA_Dovunque_35
Therefore, creators of unit 487 SPA 35 AS-20 might have had in mind SPA Dovunque 35, not SPA 38 - but, as I mentioned, SPA 38 was more common.

475 Autocannon 20mm, 477 Autocannon 47mm - in Italian it is Autocannone, so maybe "Autocannone 20" is better? I'm not Italian, so I don't know if removing a last letter is acceptable in this case. We could also name them AS37 20/65 or AS37 47/32 (most popular desert vehicle carrying these guns, along with Ford in case of 20mm, but Ford was more AA-oriented). AS43 came later, and most were taken by the Germans.

Before advent of formation #238 AS Sahariane we could create an unit with three 65/17 gun trucks (unit 58) and two Fords with 20mm (unit 11), available from 9/41 - it was a variation of a battery with four 65/17 gun trucks, and both were known as "Batteria Volante" (flying battery). Unfortunately, the cool name must be shortened...

484 TL-37 AS-20 - it should be 20mm gun on armoured S37 (aka AS37 Protetto), but I couldn't find info on such variant. Besides, its armour sides would probably interfere with the AA gun. Photo is ordinary S37, as unit #62 mentioned before.
Personally, I'd remove it.

Neither IT Wikipedia lists S37 among platforms for 20/65 guns: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_20/65_Mod._1935

[Pibwl]

285-288 CasaFortificata - picture is a bunker, while the name indicates fortified house.

320, 321, 593 Cannone 65mm - icon should be single-tail, eg. 2109

322, 323, 594 Cannone 70mm - it seems to be ancient 70/15 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/70/15 - I can't find no info on 70/17. A photo can be found in Wikipedia. Used only by second-line and colonial units. Icon should be single-tail, eg. 2108
Unit 323 is AT-gun, but IT Wikipedia lists only HE and shrapnel.

Earlier - from 1930 there could be added Obice Montagna 75/13 Mod. 1915 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_7,5_cm_Vz._1915 )

It seems, that 324, 325, 595 Cannone 75L17 is in fact 75/13, and it was classified as obice da montagna , not cannone. IT Wikipedia doesn't list other short 75mm guns. There is 75/17 Schneider, but they were captured Yugoslavian guns http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_75_mm_M_Mle_1919

326, 327, 365, 596 Cannone 75L19 - with weapon 75mm L19 Mod.34 it seems to be in fact Obice 75/18 (not 19) Mod. 1934 http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/18_Mod._1934/1935.
Hence, in their classes it is the same, as units:
#19 Obice Montagna using weapon #32 75mm L18 M34/35
#358 Cannone 75L18 using weapon #61 Obice da 75L18
(Mod.34 and 35 differed in a gunbed only). All weapons should be the same, while weapon 32 has too much range 204 - according to Wikipedia, it had 9500 m. It is not an off-map gun class anyway.
Icon should have shorter barrel (say, 2106, as proposed for unit 19 - same for unit 358)
Photo in 326,327,596 is not this gun, which looked more modern.

328,329,366 Cannone 105mm - they were in fact captured French or Yugo guns http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneid...mm_M_Mle._1919 , hence they should start in late 1940. However, there is no mention that they were fitted with AP ammo - and this gun doesn't look as a good AT measure..
Icon should be single-tail, say 2115

331 C/C 37L45 - picture should be German PAK (now it's Bofors)

333,367 Cannone 149L17 - same remarks, as for #28
It might be Krupp 149/12 or Skoda 149/13 - IT Wikipedia lists AP (in fact HEAT) ammo only for the second one http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_15_cm_Vz._1914 , but it wasn't an infantry support gun, but heavy howitzer anyway.

335 Cannone 150mm - German sIG has icon 2216
It is however peculiar, that IT Wikipedia doesn't mention about its eventual usage in Regio Esercito http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sIG_33

339 Maroszek FCC - officially it was Fucile controcarro Mod. 35(P) - http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroszek_wz._35
Weapon's name should be changed (now ZK.. suggests Czech weapon)
It has a warhead 2 (should be 1 I guess).

BTW: is extremely high accuracy 34 of German #88 PzB-39 and #137 PzB M.SS.41 justified? It's almost twice better, than wz.35 (18) (#139 in GE and #135 in PL OOBs) and Boys (16) and much better than PTRS

346 L6 Lanciafiamme - apparently it had no trailer, but internal tank of mixture (photos do not show the tank with a trailer, and it had 200 l of mixture (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/L6/40), what would be too low for a trailer - 500 l in CV-33 Lf). Soviet OT-130 carried 400 l tank inside.
According to Squadron/Signal book: "An unknown number of L6/40Lfs were built, but this variant did not enter service"

349,359-361 - French tanks - I don't expect the Italians to bother with changing original MGs to own obsolete 6.5mm ones...
Some photos of Italian R35 and S35 can be found here http://www.italie1935-45.com/forum/v...php?f=10&t=389

355 AB Munizioni - in fact a picture should be turretless Autoblinda, but it may be hard to find..

364 Alfa Romeo Prot - a basic model of armoured truck was in fact Fiat 665NM (mentioned in Italian Armoured Vehicles..). It was developed in 1942 (now 41) and used for anti-partisan actions
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_665NM_protetto

374 Dovunque35 Prot - seems, that they entered service in late 1944 in RSI only https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPA_Dovunque_35_protetto http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...ue-35-blindato - although 2 were captured by the partizans.

381 Spelonca Alpino - seems, that it should have a photo of a cave

378, 379, 380, 382, 388 forts etc - they use 75/32 guns, but it entered service only in 1941 and was most modern Italian field gun http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/75/32_Mod._1937 - I guess, that forts should use older guns (eg. 75/27?)

[Pibwl]

399 SPA 35 Dovunque - icon is different, than in unit #068 (it has icon 391, which seems more correct, for it has no long nose - with 392 green variant eventually).

400,401 Fiat 508B OA, Fiat 508C OA (avail. from 1935) - in fact, both use a photo 16070 of 508CM, which was a standard Italian jeep produced from late 1938 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_508CM ) or even 1939 (http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...50-fiat-508-cm).
The first one should be Fiat 508M - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_508M, http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...at-508-balilla - it could be named 508M or 508 Spider or just 508, and be fitted with own photo (there was a good photo 30252 before, but it was replaced with newer Polish 508 Łazik photo in latest releases).

The second one should be renamed CM and made available later.

420 Fiat Ricerca - it should be the same vehicle as above, using icon 694 (current one is too large). Current photo is a small civilian sedan, while a better one would be one of jeeps above. I suggest to create two units, 508M and CM as above, with different photos.

There is a problem with jeep-like vehicles, that currently it can carry 6 persons, and it has to carry 4-men scout squads, while M could carry only 1+2, and CM 1+3 persons.

Same remarks for unit 646 Fiat Ricerca (which has to carry 6-men squads).


402 Fiat 626RNL AB - name is wrong - 626RNL had cab over engine and was produced since 1939
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F...NL_autobus.png
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_626
I don't know what bus should go there instead.


412 Fiat 1100 - much better icon for a pickup is 689 or 3182-3184

416 Fiat OGI 708 - should be Fiat-OCI 708 CM (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-OCI_708_CM )

There is also one cool wheeled tractor, that could be added: http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...item/295-tm-40
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPA_TM40

417 Breda 32M Trat - used from some 1933 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_TP32 http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...m/284-breda-32 (now: 39). Max speed was only 30 km/h.

421 AS-37 Ricerca - better icon is 456 (current one is AS-42 with a spare wheel in front). Photo is nice, but it is TL-37 tractor (it is acceptable, since AS-37 was a derivate fof Tl-37, but it looked different https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-SPA_AS37 ). It should not be armoured.

422 Pavesi P4-100 - was used since the 1920s https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavesi_P4

428 Bat Obici 212mm - it should be 210mm http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansaldo_210/22_Mod._1935

437 AB Volpe - a translation of a name suggests it is a Fox, but a photo is a low-quality Humber (Fox is 6009). Fox should be armoured with .50 Browning and .30 Browning (btw: armament of Canadian unit #48 should be corrected as well)

438 Autoblinda MkIV - photo should be Humber IV (30121). I don't think the Italians would change 7.9mm Besa to Breda CMG. maybe the name should be AB Humber MkIV rather?

441 219mm Mortaio - possibly it should be 210mm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortaio_da_210/8_D.S.

462 MGCA M.37 Breda - photo is probably some ZB-30. Breda looked like this http://worldwartwozone.com/gallery.old/500/be5b.jpg (there are also more interesting photos on this page http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/in...talian-forces/ )

[Pibwl]

465 Cannone 155L39 - photo shows US M2 Long Tom, but it should be 155/45 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_155_mm_Long_Tom)

467 MGCA M.30 Breda - was there an AA mounting for such a light LMG?... (and with small magazine?) As the earliest AAMG, I'd rather expect heavy Fiat-Revelli Mod. 1914 (what seems to be confirmed by https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-Revelli_Mod._1914 - unfortunately, no photos in AA configuration)

468 MGCA Breda 13.2 - photo is here https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Breda_mod.31.jpg (it doesn't seem, that 13.2mm Breda was a standard type in ground army...)

474 Romeo Cingolato - it should be rather Breda 61 semicingolato - https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_61

The other halftrack model was Fiat 727, which dffered from German ones, but only a few were made https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_727

476 AS-37 - same remarks as unit 421

492,493 Fiat SPA 611/34, 611/35 - it was just Fiat 611 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_611_%28autoblindo%29
http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...m/281-fiat-611
Size should be 4 - it was huge.

492 should be armed with 3 single MGs only - two single ones in a turret and one at the back.
493 might be designated Fiat 611 37/40 indicating the gun, and it should be armed with #14 Vickers-Terni 37/40 (now 47mm), single 6.5mm MG at the turret's rear and the second one at the back. Gun ammo was 50 rounds (there should be more AP). Definitely the gun and MG could not shoot at one target at the same time (in both cars, usage of rear hull MG must have been rare).
Winter icon could be 4448

499 Fiat 2000 - it had single 6.5mm MGs (there existed only single versions of 6.5mm MG).
Used until 1934 only https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_2000

500 CV-35 [20], 503 CV-38 [20], 504 CV-38 CC - there's no info about trials of fitting tankettes with 20mm guns, apart from a probably single vehicle used during the Spanish Civil War. Only from late 1940 they started to be armed with Solothurn gun (represented already by unit #32) - and surely 20mm-armed tankettes weren't produced in any series before that date. IMO they should be removed.

501 CV-35 [37] - there's no info about tankettes armed with 37mm guns - and surely they were not produced in any series.

502 CV-38 - "it was not until mid-1942 when Ansaldo started modifying 200 tankettes with the new suspension" (Squadron/Signal book)

505 CV-38/Brixia - a photo is on a page http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index....page__st__2680

506 CV-38 [13.2] - actually, a few tankettes were fitted with 13.2mm MG only from 1941 (or late 1940 - Squadron/Signal book).
They and 20-mm armed ones weren't numerous and could be treated as a separate category, to avoid platoons consisting all of modified tankettes.

[Pibwl]

508 L 6/40 CA - I can find no info about alleged L 6/40 with AAMG (instead of CMG?..), also there are no photos with AAMG on a turret.
According to http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...tem/289-l-6-40 , delivered from 5/41 (now 3/41). But first were delivered to cavalry school, and they were shipped to Africa only in 12/41.

509 L 6/40 [37] - no sign of such tank with 37mm gun, apart from early prototypes, but they had short 37/26...

510,511 AB Coloniale - it's not clear what they're supposed to be. Photo is Belgian Ford/M-H 91Y armoured tractor. If we mean obsolete armoured cars, that were used away from main theatre, it can possibly be only Eastern Africa - and Fiat 611 and Lancia 1ZM were used there. A nice colonial car could be also http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-Terni_Tripoli (btw, according to this page, they were initially armed with 6.5mm MG, but during the war they were rearmed with 12.7mm AAMG in an open turret). So, maybe after an advent of AB-40, older armoured cars should be available as colonial cars only? In case of Lancia 1ZM it would be until 1943 (on islands).

There is no sign of armoured gun-armed trucks in Italian army, moreover, used in far colonies instead of main theatre. There could be used ordinary gun-armed trucks instead, described earlier. ("In Eritrea, an unspecified number of 65/17 guns were mounted on Fiat 634 trucks" - Italian Truck-Mounted Artillery in action)

515 Guzzi Trasporto - photo is in fact Belgian FN - there are Italian ones here: http://www.italie1935-45.com/regio-e...guzzi-alce-500 name could be changed to Guzzi TriAlce https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi_TriAlce
It was produced from 1940 (now 1/39)

524 Corazzata BB - the Italians used 305mm guns only until around 1937/38 (beginning of refit of Andrea Doria class)

525 Corazzata BB - photo should be 704 or 2004 - now it's probably 381mm (at least used as such by #523 unit)

564 Centro Radia OA - more appropriate as FO vehicle seems Carro Commando L40, built upon Semovente 47. It was turretless, open-top, armed with 8mm BMG (concealed as a gun). Icon would be of Semovente 1900/1901. Centro Radia command tanks had no AAMG anyway.

566 Carro M.41 OA, 567,715 SMV M.42 OA - seems, that both are in fact the same Carro Commando M.41. Proper photo is 16150 on the other hand. It was armed with single 13.2mm Breda (there was no twin 13.2mm BMG) and AAMG Breda 38 (Squadron/Signal book)


That's all.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

That's all.

I'm going to hold you to that promise. I have quite enough to do as it is

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

349,359-361 - French tanks - I don't expect the Italians to bother with changing original MGs to own obsolete 6.5mm ones...
Some photos of Italian R35 and S35 can be found here http://www.italie1935-45.com/forum/v...php?f=10&t=389

I'm attaching a photo of R-35

[Pibwl]

One more thing: unit 348 Fiat 3000 L5/30 (class Tank Destroyer) should be IMO removed. It uses a strange gun L/33, while other Fiat 3000 L5/30 #514 and 533 (in other classes) use correct Vickers Terni L/40 gun. I've found no info, that L/33 guns were used - and it is much weaker, while this unit is supposed to be a tank destroyer (with 30 rounds of ammo, btw)

As for two later ones: they carried only 68 rounds (now 160), according to "Carri armati" book.

[Pibwl]

Only one photo error (Fiat 611) and a few simple things:

487 SPA-38 20/65 - photo is a truck with Solothurn AT rifle(?). Better is 3652 (Dovunque with 20mm) or I'm attaching SPA with AA gun.

492,493 Fiat 611 - photo should be 16053 (now it's Soviet BA-27)

497 TL-37 75L27 - photo is 47mm Autocannone - I'm attaching several proposals of a proper vehicle with 75mm gun.

564 Centro Radia OA - photo in fact is Cingoletta carrier prototype, I'm attaching Carro Commando L40.

715 SMV M.42 OA - there was no twin 13mm TMG - it should be a single weapon 233, same as unit 566


371, 502 L 3-38 - available publications don't mention any improvement in armour or fire control comparing with L 3-35, only a chassis (armour is too good now). Unit 371 should be available from 1942, like 502.

506 L 3-38 [13.2] - despite prototype L 3/38 featured single 13.2mm MG, but actually, according to Squadron/Signal book, it wasn't adopted and some tankettes were fitted with a single 12.7 mm Breda SAFAT aircraft MG rather than 13.2mm MG (and there wasn't twin 13.2mm at all). It could be renamed to L 3-35 [..], because such weapons were mounted since early 1941, before an advent of L-3/38. Same remarks for armour, as above.


Aircraft:

I got a bit carried away with aircraft, but I noticed, that some of ground attack planes appear years too early and have unrealistic bomb loads. Changes are simple, but you can just leave it.

177,178 Cr.42 Falco - it should be CR.42 (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_C.R.42)
For sure it couldn't take six bombs 50 kg - possibly four in some versions, though typical was two bombs.
As for unit 178, max bomb load was 2x100 kg (now 2x120 kg).

Apparently fighter-bomber variants entered service only in Africa (6/40 could be for both, although it seems it was 1941 - I have no firm sources).

179,180 MC.200 Saetta, MC.200 bis - MC.200 bis variant of 1942 did not enter production, but all MC.200 were armed with twin 12.7mm MGs as a standard.
Ordinary MC 200, entering service in 1939 had no bomb racks, and could be a strafer only. A fighter-bomber variant was named MC.200 CB (up to 2x160kg indeed), but they were first used, according to a Polish monograph, from summer 1942 (Italian Wikipedia seems to confirm it, first mentioning arrival of bomber MC.200 CB from July 1942)

Polish monograph mentions also armament in 8 bombs 50 kg (on two quadruple racks), but it's hard to believe.

(Great icon btw! )

184 Breda Ba.65 - according to two Polish articles, they were produced only from 2/37 and used from 5/37 (now 3/35). Withdrawn from combat use by 2/41 (now 7/42). In combat units used as single-seaters.

Although Italian Wikipedia says "1000 kg (carico teorico)" (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breda_Ba.65) but in fact they could take 4 x max 100kg in a bomb bay (though usually it was 4x50kg).

Interesting often used armament variant was 168 of 2kg HE bomblets, but it would need a new weapon (in Spain it was used in addition to 2x100 kg bombs)

191,192 Ba. 88 Lince - they first went to units only in 5/39, ready from 9/39 (now 6/36). Withdrawn from operational service already in 11/40 (now 11/41).
Speed 3 is too low (490 km/h)

Although Italian Wikipedia gives bomb load 1000 kg, but it had a big problem with overload and wouldn't go airborne with it, especially in Africa, when they had problems with 250 kg sometimes (what is confirmed even on Wikipedia page).

As for unit 191, a standard load was 3x100 kg, 3x200 kg was theoretical.
As for unit 192, according to Polish article and http://www.airwar.ru/enc/bww2/ba88.html, a standard number of 250 kg bombs were two. Three 250kg would be pure theory, not mentioning four (Ba 88 had three bomb racks under a fuselage).

That's all.

Attached are some assorted photos.

[Pibwl]

Only few connected for RSI OOB

502 CV-38 - proper picture is 20642 (now it's CV-35)

505 CV-38/Brixia - there is a dedicated photo 821

506 CV-38 [13.2] - proper photo is 822, as Italian unit 506 (besides, same remarks, as Italian 506)

(503 CV-38 [20] - there isn't known a variant with 20mm gun and MG)