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  #1  
Old December 6th, 2015, 03:41 PM

zastava128 zastava128 is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

I'd like to request the following changes/additions. I've now exhausted the available literature, so this pretty much wraps it up for this OOB, save for a couple of utility vehicles and maybe a patrol boat or two. But I'll leave those for next year.

UNITS:

036 - end date can be extended to 12/46 - as a rule, German weapons remained in use to the end of the war and longer

143 - end date can be extended to 12/44, since it was used by the local guerrillas and militias

162 - end date can be extended until 12/45, since it was only phased out after the war

Request adding: Rifle Squad (unit class: 1) weapons diversification
-Currently, all Rifle Squads from 1/45-12/46 all have Soviet weapons, while historically there were still plenty of captured German weapons as well as ex-Royal Yugoslav ones in use. Thus, I'd request Rifle Squads with the following weapon combinations be added:

1. Kar 98k Rifle + MG34 LMG + Hand Grenade + Tellermine (1/45-12/45)
2. Kar 98k Rifle + MG42 LMG + Hand Grenade + GebaltenGranate (1/45-12/46, radio code: 1)
3. M24 Rifle + VZ30J LMG + Hand Grenade + Hawkins Mine (1/45-12/46)

Request adding: Ja-12 (arty tractor)
-date: 1/45-12/46
-unit class: 180
-Sent by Soviets together with other vehicles. I think it would be a good thing to add them since there's currently only horse limbers in the OOB.
Photo: http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/p...okrakom/p6.jpg
-can be found in Polish LWP OOB, unit 182

Request adding: Partisan AT / Bazooka
-date: 9?/44-12/46
-unit class: 2
-Sent to the partisans via the British mission on the island of Vis.
-photo of British officer teaching how to use it: http://www.bosnienforum.com/showthre...?t=3040&page=3

Request adding: Autoblinda 40
-date: 9/43-12/45
-unit class: 11
-I've found this model of the Autoblinda was also among those captured by the partisans. Attaching photo.

Request adding: Panhard 178
-date: 11?/44-12/46
-unit class: 11
-I found out they were captured and used in combat by the partisans.
-several Pahnards can be seen behind the trucks on the right on this photo: http://s832.photobucket.com/user/dra...qdq4m.jpg.html

Request adding: M13/40
-date: 9/43-?/45
-unit class: 159
-A few were captured and used by partisans when Italy surrendered. Attaching photo.

Request adding: 305mm 16M Skoda Mortar
-date: 1/30-4/41
-unit class: 155
-Used by Yugo Royal Army, inherited from Austria-Hungary. I think it would be a good idea to add since the current OOB lacks this kind of siege arty.
-can be found in Hungarian OOB (unit 255)

Request adding: 5cm GrW 36 - six men, 2 mortars per unit
-date: 1/43-12/45
-unit class: 153
-captured from Germans by partisans, also used by Ustashe
-photo of partisan 5cm GrW: http://fototeka.sabh.hr/FotoAlbumi/Fotografija/1714

Request adding: Fieseler Storch
-date: 10/43-12/44
-unit class: 50
-a small number of aircraft were either captured or defected following the surrender of Italy. I'd use the Storch to represent these (in reality there was a variety of unarmed aircraft, but the Storch is already in the game, so it's easier to use it to represent all of them).

Request adding BF 109G-2/R-1
-date: 4/45-12/46
-unit class: 44
-again, these were captured planes and defectors. Remained in use after end of war (as seen in WinSPMBT).
-info: http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/yugo...Indyhq-sqn.htm


FORMATIONS:
If Storch is added, Formation 79 start date should be 10/43.


WEAPONS (new, for requested units):
MG 42 LMG - for Rifle Squad
Bazooka - for Pastisan AT
8mm (2) TMG - for Autoblinda 40
25mm SA 35 L/53 - for Panhard 178
5cm GrW 36
305mm 16M Skoda Mortar
13mm MG-131 - for BF 109G
30mm MK-101 - ditto

I'm attaching 5 relevant photos plus what I think are higher-res versions of 3 photos used in the game.
Attached Files
File Type: zip spob20 pictures.zip (6.32 MB, 261 views)
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  #2  
Old January 20th, 2016, 08:24 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

A couple of suggestions:

05 M.28 - I suggest name Renault M.28, for it wasn't a standalone designation, but model 1928.

21 65mm Mtn Gun - picture is Russian 76mm M.13 (from Finnish OOB). Maybe it should be French 65mm mle 06 (picture 468)? Same for unit 320.

22 M7 105mm HMC - I don't insist to change the name, but out of interest, they were known as Serman (Sherman) self-propelled gun in Yugoslavian Army. Maybe M7 Sherman?..

23 M8 HMC - as above, they were known as Stuart self-propelled gun.

63 Yak-9 - I don't know which version it is supposed to be, but an armament should be only 1 x 20mm gun (not 23mm) and 1 x 12.7 if it was most numerous Soviet Yak-9M, or 1 x 20mm and 2 x 12.7, if it's late-war high performance Yak-9U (less likely).

72 T-34/76 - in fact, T-34/76 were several captured ex-German machines (the soviet Union equipped Yugoslavian 2nd Tank Brigade with new T-34/85), so maybe class 159 Captured tank is better, so they won't be mixed.

73 M3A1 Stuart - photo is M3A3. I'll attach a Yugo one.

159 Hurricane I - this 1939 Hurricane has late-war photo 2080 (from Yugo RAF squadron), with prominent stars, more appropriate for unit 268
Photos of early ones http://defenceoftherealm.files.wordp..._hurricane.jpg
http://www.sas1946.com/images/image*...brooklands.jpg
http://www.sas1946.com/images/image*...8/whitexlc.jpg

187 Alpine AT Rifle
- photo is PTRD, not Solothurn

268 Hurricane Mk.IV - it could be doubled with 2x250 lbs bombs

271 Caproni Ca.310 - has Norwegian markings. A photo is eg. here http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9b809839.jpg
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/...ps03c5b9e5.jpg

273 Breguet XIX - a photo of Yugoslavian one
http://avioni.net/vvkj/fotografije/01134.jpg

Now it's only AOP plane - it's worth to be doubled as a fighter-bomber (eg. copied #579 from Polish oob, with some MG - say #163 7.7mm MG, and 4x100 kg bombs

289,290 Partisan AT, 291,590 Cetnik AT - photos might be replaced with some Molotovs...

302 TK-3 - on a photo are in fact TKS, and most probably German ones from a propaganda movie Heimkehr, pretending to be Polish, not Ustase ones.
There are photos of real Croatian TK-3 http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=173309

303 PzKw I B - photo is actually Pz IA (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...97186&start=15), as well as other photos of Croatian Pz I on this forum, so maybe unit's should be changed

349 MGCA M.37 Breda - photo is some other LMG (I pointed it out in Italian OOB).

451 CV-33/35 LF - maybe a category should be changed from Captured tank to Flame tank, since other ordinary captured tanks appear in #114 Flame Tank formation.

459 White-Laffly AM - Zastava 128 mentioned about White AM in this subject http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=49959 , but it must be old White AM (#407 from French OOB), not relatively new Laffly 80.
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  #3  
Old January 20th, 2016, 08:31 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

Photos of Stuarts
Attached Files
File Type: zip yugo_stuarts.zip (2.18 MB, 243 views)
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  #4  
Old January 21st, 2016, 11:27 AM

zastava128 zastava128 is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
21 65mm Mtn Gun - picture is Russian 76mm M.13 (from Finnish OOB). Maybe it should be French 65mm mle 06 (picture 468)? Same for unit 320.
Agree, I think this is a better choice.

Quote:
22 M7 105mm HMC - I don't insist to change the name, but out of interest, they were known as Serman (Sherman) self-propelled gun in Yugoslavian Army. Maybe M7 Sherman?..

23 M8 HMC - as above, they were known as Stuart self-propelled gun.
I don't think these were the official designations during WW2. Terminology wasn't consistent in any case. I'd probably leave them as-is.

Quote:
63 Yak-9 - I don't know which version it is supposed to be, but an armament should be only 1 x 20mm gun (not 23mm) and 1 x 12.7 if it was most numerous Soviet Yak-9M, or 1 x 20mm and 2 x 12.7, if it's late-war high performance Yak-9U (less likely).
The only thing I was able to find regarding this is a recollection by a Yugoslav pilot. He actually mentions his commander's Yak-9 had a 23mm gun, but of course he could be mistaken since he's talking about something that happened 30 years ago.

Yugoslavia did have both Yak-9M and Yak-9U, but I have no idea whether the latter were acquired during WW2 or after it.

Quote:
72 T-34/76 - in fact, T-34/76 were several captured ex-German machines (the soviet Union equipped Yugoslavian 2nd Tank Brigade with new T-34/85), so maybe class 159 Captured tank is better, so they won't be mixed.
True, though the 76s (there were 5 of them) were added to the same unit as the 85s. Still, I think your solution is probably better.

Quote:
303 PzKw I B - photo is actually Pz IA (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...97186&start=15), as well as other photos of Croatian Pz I on this forum, so maybe unit's should be changed
I think they actually had both A and B versions. Problem is, sources sometimes confuse German and Croatian-operated tanks.
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  #5  
Old January 21st, 2016, 03:26 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

Quote:
Originally Posted by zastava128 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
22 M7 105mm HMC - I don't insist to change the name, but out of interest, they were known as Serman (Sherman) self-propelled gun in Yugoslavian Army. Maybe M7 Sherman?..

23 M8 HMC - as above, they were known as Stuart self-propelled gun.
I don't think these were the official designations during WW2. Terminology wasn't consistent in any case. I'd probably leave them as-is.
Maybe not official, but at least they were called so in reports, according to bilingual "Armored units and vehicles in Croatia during WWII Part I" (which I have in scans)

T-34/76 is mentioned in this book only in a context of trophies of Stuart-armed 1st Tank bde.

As for PzKpfw-I, maybe it's best to omit Ausf letters?

To end the subject from my side, I'll quote myself from earlier posts, for consideration:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
Maybe there could be added Danube river monitors?...

There is already one ex-Yugoslavian in a Hungarian oob: #137 Drava (available 1/30-4/41), that could be copied, with its weapons. If a speed on water is calculated the same way, it could be faster: 13 knots (24 km/h) = 8 (now 5). Radio should be 90.

There could be also created several others, using Drava as a pattern, retaining AA gun and MG, only changing main artillery, all available 1/30-4/41:
- Vardar: had two 120/L45 and two 120 L/10 guns, 25 km/h
- Sava: had two 120/L35 (not 45) and one 120 L/10 guns, 24 km/h
- Morava: had two 120/L35, 18 km/h.

Icon 706 represents Drava, but it could also serve for others. Maybe Morava can use 708/709, for she was slightly narrower and had single turrets fore and aft (although she had oval stern). If anybody wanted to bother with creating icons, I can upload plans of all.

Croatian navy afterwards used Sava until 9/44 (sunk) and Bosna (former Morava) until 6/44. I don't know when they were commissioned - first they had to be raised and repaired (1942?)
Morava could use 228 icon
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  #6  
Old January 21st, 2016, 05:08 PM

zastava128 zastava128 is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

Quote:
Maybe not official, but at least they were called so in reports, according to bilingual "Armored units and vehicles in Croatia during WWII Part I" (which I have in scans)
Depends which reports. I've also seen the M8 called "Kadilak" (Cadillac) due to its engine.

There's a table showing some of the local designations on this page if you're interested (scroll to the end). It's in Serbian, but you'll be able to make sense of it I think:

http://www.srpskioklop.paluba.info/jna/1945-1948.htm

Quote:
T-34/76 is mentioned in this book only in a context of trophies of Stuart-armed 1st Tank bde.
You're right, my bad. They were used by the 1st Tank bde. during the last few weeks of the war, but added to the 2nd Tank bde. after the war.
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Old January 21st, 2016, 05:54 PM

Pibwl Pibwl is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

Quote:
Originally Posted by zastava128 View Post
Quote:
T-34/76 is mentioned in this book only in a context of trophies of Stuart-armed 1st Tank bde.
You're right, my bad. They were used by the 1st Tank bde. during the last few weeks of the war, but added to the 2nd Tank bde. after the war.
I thought so, that's logical
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  #8  
Old January 31st, 2016, 08:08 PM

zastava128 zastava128 is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

One last thing - unit 590 (Cetnik AT) is currently available to Partisan formations, which it shouldn't be. This can be resolved by setting it's end date to 8/41.


Explanation:

My first thought was that the unit class was wrong. But it's actually the date that's the issue. If you look at units 591-593 (the other Cetnik units available at that time), you'll see their end date is set to 8/41.

This is because the AI will buy units 590-593 (Cetniks) in the period from 5/41-8/41, after which it exclusively buys Partisans. The Cetnik units in slots 291-297 all appear in 9/41 or later, and are never used by the AI.
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  #9  
Old March 23rd, 2016, 01:59 PM

zastava128 zastava128 is offline
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Default Re: spob20 Yugoslavia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibwl View Post
63 Yak-9 - I don't know which version it is supposed to be, but an armament should be only 1 x 20mm gun (not 23mm) and 1 x 12.7 if it was most numerous Soviet Yak-9M, or 1 x 20mm and 2 x 12.7, if it's late-war high performance Yak-9U (less likely).
I know I'm late for this update, but I just wanted to say I finally found the answer to this after ages of searching: it's actually supposed to be a Yak-9T with a 37mm gun.

My source (in Polish): http://www.mycity-military.com/slika...7321801_j3.jpg
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