Normandy 1944

[DRG]

you hit hexes with tanks in them with naval gunfire in the game and they are, at the very least, NOT HAPPY.hit them a couple turns in a row and they are even less happy

[IronDuke99]

Agreed, but I think you could make a fairly strong case for reducing Allied air force anti armour effects and increasing Naval gun fire effects.

[IronDuke99]

So I ran a test:

One company of SS Tiger tanks in the open and deployed closely together, not dug in.

One the other side, 10 spotter aircraft, one RN 16in Battleship, two RN 15inch Battleship, one RN 14 inch Battleship, one RN 8inch Heavy Cruiser.

Game set to max visibility. Artillery set to 175%. Game length 39 turns.

Result: 1 Tiger destroyed. 1 Tiger immobilised. 1 Tiger retreating and 2 Tigers buttoned up.

I think that is a bit weak given the naval firepower used...

[DRG]

something to investigate next year NOT a month before a patch release. It's important to remember these naval bombardments went on longer than normally players give them in the game. One or two turns...6 minutes of gunfire means nothing. Hit the area for 10 turns then let me know what the result is

[IronDuke99]

Originally Posted by DRG

something to investigate next year NOT a month before a patch release. It's important to remember these naval bombardments went on longer than normally players give them in the game. One or two turns...6 minutes of gunfire means nothing. Hit the area for 10 turns then let me know what the result is

The example of my test was a bombardment, and nothing but a bombardment, for the whole game length, ie, 39 turns, with artillery set at 175%. At the end the area all around the tanks was nothing but shell holes, yet it merely destroyed one and immobilised another.

Was not suggesting it needs to be changed right now, given all the other stuff relating to the next patch going on. I'm sure you have more than enough to do.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

So I ran a test:

One company of SS Tiger tanks in the open and deployed closely together, not dug in.

One the other side, 10 spotter aircraft, one RN 16in Battleship, two RN 15inch Battleship, one RN 14 inch Battleship, one RN 8inch Heavy Cruiser.

Game set to max visibility. Artillery set to 175%. Game length 39 turns.

Result: 1 Tiger destroyed. 1 Tiger immobilised. 1 Tiger retreating and 2 Tigers buttoned up.

I think that is a bit weak given the naval firepower used...

A tiger 1 tank company deployed close together, delay scenario with V-hexes German so they dont move other than in rout.

One observer in front of them, the HQ deployed with a view to the rear of the pack. 2 battleships bought, scenario length 30. Gold spot in the middle of the pack to speed things up.

All values at default - i.e. no pumping up of artillery values.

Test 1 - 2 destroyed, 1-2 abandoned, 50% of the company disabled, 2 rout off map.

Test 2 - 4 destroyed, one routed off map, one damaged and in process of being chased by 15 inch (at 0.1 to adjust for an observer with LOS you can chase a routed tigger!) and all others disabled and abandoned by crews, 2 crew surviving at turn 30.

Observations -
The battleships were using 15 inch HE. HE is not good for piercing armour (pen is 9, tigers are generally at least 8 armour on rear and flanks). Even with the occasional bonus for warhead size, they aren't going to slay tigers willy-nilly.

Your test scenario seems to have been unobserved fire(?) - use of random spotter planes and plotting by the A0 who did not have eyes on target?. Unobserved fires are far less concentrated since the rounds tend to land all over the place. But this test scenario was firing into a dust cloud by round 2 or 3 due to shell dust thrown up.

With blast radius set to "on" you could see that most of the shells would strike about half the company with an orange circle showing a hit that at least suppressed the tank.

By about turn 6-8 about half the company was usually hors de combat - damaged, track blown off, and often in retreat or rout with no tracks, leading to abandonment. The remainder of the 30 turns was moving shell fire to try to hit surviving tanks in smoke, so often drifted off intended point of aim.

Battleship fire does do a lot of damage, especially (as with all artillery) if given time to work the targets over. Even on tiger 1s, which will endure where say panzer 4s would be reduced to scrap much earlier.

But battleship HE rounds are NOT Maverick anti-tank missiles.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Sounds like real life Anzio to me. Couldn't resist when I saw the topic. The following ships exploits in this discussion area are well known to me from my Naval background and history studies.
http://iainballantyne.com/hms-rodney...-hms-rodney-2/

Good topic and good advice about FOO. Many refs. would say or suggest on this topic the importance of these missions coordinated with a naval FOO or other in the success of the mission against armor etc. Andy's test and therefore the game itself represents exactly what history has already shown.

Regards,
Pat

[cbo]

Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH

Sounds like real life Anzio to me. Couldn't resist when I saw the topic. The following ships exploits in this discussion area are well known to me from my Naval background and history studies.
http://iainballantyne.com/hms-rodney...-hms-rodney-2/

With performance like that, you wonder why they ever bothered developing nukes....

Frankly, I think statements like this: "In one episode where Bletchley’s code-breakers played a vital role, some 50 out of 127 German tanks massing for an attack were wiped out." have very little to do with reality. Tanks are built exactly to take this kind of punishment from blast, fragments and bullets. Their main enemy is not blast and steel flying about, but direct hits from anti-tank weapons. All analysis of WWII tank losses seem to confirm this.
Now, I wouldn't be surprised if those 50 tanks were temporarily out of action due to crews concussion, sights and periscopes being knocked out of alignment and damaged, engines clogged with debris and dust and some damage done to external fittings and suspension components. But "wiped" out seems highly unlikely given the effects of HE on tanks in general - regardless of whether it was delivered by field artillery, ships or bombers.
There are examples of groups of tanks being damaged by massive HE attack and tank attacks being broken up by massive HE fire, but such attacks does not leave behind dozens of broken and burning tanks.

Andys tests seems consistent with what you would expect from long, massive HE attacks on tanks.