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March 21st, 2022, 03:26 PM
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Shrapnel Fanatic
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Re: MBT's
I have reviewed and in some cases revised the EXP and MOR ratings and they now also include the 2020s... previous to this it was 2010 -> but what I found ( or more importantly did NOT find ) is any info on what is important to the game and that is comparative training or troops and the quality and experience of NCO's and mid-low level officers.
Nothing..... nada
What I do find are "big" picture ratings like a "pwrindex" which means NOTHING to the game. It was a hugely frustrating exercise just like it was at the start and every time since.
There may be anecdotal stories of how an army trains or how often but finding things like that is scarce
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March 21st, 2022, 07:07 PM
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BANNED USER
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Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Killeen, TX
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Re: MBT's
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRG
I have reviewed and in some cases revised the EXP and MOR ratings and they now also include the 2020s... previous to this it was 2010 -> but what I found ( or more importantly did NOT find ) is any info on what is important to the game and that is comparative training or troops and the quality and experience of NCO's and mid-low level officers.
Nothing..... nada
What I do find are "big" picture ratings like a "pwrindex" which means NOTHING to the game. It was a hugely frustrating exercise just like it was at the start and every time since.
There may be anecdotal stories of how an army trains or how often but finding things like that is scarce
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True. A game is not going to show how troops who have good training break the second the bullets fly or how ones with no training stand and fight. Those things are very hard to put into numbers. I think you guys are doing amazing work though. |
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March 21st, 2022, 09:56 PM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: MBT's
Want to enjoy the rest of this evening but, I came across another tank that was on my list which I kind've felt wasn't gaining any real traction as far as getting into the game especially after the MERKAVA 4b WINDBREAKER entered service (A planned interim tank to the following.) but now that's changed!! MERKAVA 5 BARAK!!  Cmon, you had to know that was coming!
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...e_by_2023.html
One of my favorite tanks (Because I spent over half a page of revisions to it a few years ago in you know where.) the STRV 122 series appears to be getting what I believe is a NEW tank round the 120mm M339 that Israeli tanks now have.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._122_mbts.html
https://elbitsystems.com/landing/wp-...nks_15_Web.pdf
Well, can you guess what's coming next!?!      
Well I'm sure Don will at this point will agree, this would be a good time for to start watching " Viking Valhalla" personally I blame Ancestry (You know who.) for updated their DNA tech and databases, 17% Swedish!?! Someday I'll tell the story behind it from my Mom from her Grandmother during the bombing campaign over Cologne Germany.
Regards,
Pat
 (Sometimes better than one.)
__________________
"Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the art of war their particular study, and by those who are present at the scene of the action, who see the enemy, who see the advantages that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ship, are sharers of the danger." - Roman General Lucius Paulus
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The Following User Says Thank You to FASTBOAT TOUGH For This Useful Post:
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March 28th, 2022, 12:57 AM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: MBT's
Here we go again!?!
This was visited within a handful of years ago OR LESS, because someone had issues, we chased this down to "the dirt under a paved road" I like that anyway, I also have numbers for the T-55.
T-55:
https://weaponsystems.net/system/631-T-55AM
(With COMPLETE armor values.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/632-T-55AMV
https://weaponsystems.net/system/634-T-62M
(This tank is sometimes confused with the T-55 the distinction between them is in the bore evacuator and road wheel spacing - verified.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/887-115mm%20U-5TS
(T-62 MG.)
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...oviet_t-55.php
(Yes, I see the disclaimer image that a little honesty from a legitimate website. Also, a pretty good foreign data section. The numbers are below that.
Steel is Steel, I think most will understand this is common to most serial production tanks and upgrades versions of the same as plainly stated in ref. 1.
Don, I have a request to add to the many you both have been getting lately, my birthday is on 28 June hawse about the patch being released for my birthday!!!????!!!   you know what's NEXT (Kind've obvious I guess?)...   (These last two are Andy and Don getting a headache.)
So, in the short term may I suggest the following...
Connect via whatever, seat down and enjoy some  (Nuts are optional.), have plenty of these  , don't get  and  finally if we ever see the patch released  , let me be the first to...
THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR PATIENCE TO ALL AND WHAT I FEAR TO BE ONE OF YOUR "HARDEST" WORKING YEARS. WELL DONE TO YOU BOTH AND GOD HELP YOU BOTH I FEAR A COMEBACK FROM SOMEONE ELSE. here's to you BOTH with as MUCH RESPECT as you've shown me over the years.  
We really need to do something about all these E-M-O-E-JOES!?! MAYBE NEXT YEAR!?!
Someone's getting a VERY numbified mouth later today and I'm glad it won't be me!! 
Regards,
Pat
Oh yeah, celebrating another successful inspection/exercise by our combined team at work so...
__________________
"Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the art of war their particular study, and by those who are present at the scene of the action, who see the enemy, who see the advantages that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ship, are sharers of the danger." - Roman General Lucius Paulus
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; March 28th, 2022 at 01:47 AM..
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March 28th, 2022, 05:15 PM
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Shrapnel Fanatic
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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Re: MBT's
Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH
THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR PATIENCE TO ALL AND WHAT I FEAR TO BE ONE OF YOUR "HARDEST" WORKING YEARS. WELL DONE TO YOU BOTH AND GOD HELP YOU BOTH I FEAR A COMEBACK FROM SOMEONE ELSE. here's to you BOTH with as MUCH RESPECT as you've shown me over the years.
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Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH
We really need to do something about all these E-M-O-E-JOES!?! MAYBE NEXT YEAR!?! |
Yes, you really, really. Really need to lift that finger after the first one ( really.......) |
March 29th, 2022, 02:09 AM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
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Re: MBT's
While looking into some T-80 issues I found this.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-t-8...ve-armour/?amp
How easy it is to stuff them with heavy stock paper. As has been discussed elsewhere.
It won't be hard (Assuming some efficiency is in place to track these.) to go back and figure out who was involved in sabotaging those ERA bags. Note the timeline and limited use tanks that apparently have them.
It's now 0230 quite awhile after the above. I got up to Page 35 looking for those missile posts, so my guess of ~3 years might not be to far off.
I did come across some posts more into the first mention in the 1st and 3rd ones listed the rest are deeper.
Post 164 RELIKT ERA
Post 232 "Deep" VARTA Soft Kill (OPLOTs)
Post 281 SPIKE LOS, I think this was brought up for Ukraine? NO they don't.
Post 301 "Deep" Seems I got the ball rolling on these the T-72B3 which is thought to be the most prevalent Russian tank in Ukraine and ARENA-E
I gotta go back to work this afternoon, I'm sorry but I'm done.
Hope some of this helps.
After all those pages I've forgotten about how long ago I started tracking some of this equipment that's still NOT at FOC.
Sometimes you need to look back, to look ahead.
Good Night!
Regards,
Pat
__________________
"Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the art of war their particular study, and by those who are present at the scene of the action, who see the enemy, who see the advantages that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ship, are sharers of the danger." - Roman General Lucius Paulus
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; March 29th, 2022 at 03:03 AM..
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April 3rd, 2022, 02:46 AM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: MBT's
My last post covered pages 1 - 35 of this thread.
Because of newer information in some cases not yet posted (Ariete as an example.) I'm reposting some items. Also, there'll be " PROCESS related " posts to benefit newer and maybe some older players to understand what goes into some of the decisions made about certain aspects of the game, i.e., how and when we got beyond TI/GSR 40. Plus, what we knew then that truthfully hasn't changed in the present or will in the near future. I leave that to you the reader to decide.
I will not offer nor engage in any commentary on any of the following the data that is good still and most was " actionable" when submitted. As the reader should note the page count, dates, what pages are left to go through and finally the information I still hold unposted that will change very little from what's below. I have, as with the last post I HAVE BOTH SCANNED EVERY POST TO DATE AND READ VERY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING SELECTED ONES AS WELL.
The following cover Pages 35 - 65 of this thread.
Post 363 ITALY ARIETE C2/C3 were not executed.
Post 381 POLAND 2PL
Post 400 Mine Protected Tanks See also 394 & 401
Post 409 Hard and Soft Kill (Data posted was taken directly from the now dead links. So much for "Nothings dead on the internet.!?!"
Post 415 DU Armor Started.
Post 423 T-80 visited again, you HAVE TO continually TRACK, TRACK, TRACK.
Post 435 DU Armor
Posts 447/449/450 TI/GSR & HOW WE GOT THERE.
Post 473 "Deep Miner"
Post 490 Process
Post 519 One example of "How Far Have I Gone"
Post 555 Patience
Post 564 Italy ARIETE Again
Post 577 T-55/T-62/T-80
Post 584 T-55
Post 587 Go Back & Check Data
Post 646 Plausible Deniability
Post 651 Ukrainian ZASLON
Post 658 Ukrainian ZASLON
Was put together about four nights ago, my apologies for the delay in posting.
For those who really challenged me and supported me through those last 65 pages, besides the obvious, John (IMP), Suhiir, MARCELLO, Mark Sheppard and the ORIGINAL MRAP Club that thread is where I "Cut my Teeth" out here.
Later today will be " Another Day".
Regards,
Pat
__________________
"Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the art of war their particular study, and by those who are present at the scene of the action, who see the enemy, who see the advantages that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ship, are sharers of the danger." - Roman General Lucius Paulus
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; April 3rd, 2022 at 02:58 AM..
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April 3rd, 2022, 05:22 AM
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Shrapnel Fanatic
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Re: MBT's
Pat
HONESTLY....... I do not know WTF you expect us to do with that information
I DO know for absolute certain that I do not have the time nor the inclination to go back to each and every one of those posts and guess what it is you are trying to point out or how it is supposed to be applied to the game
There are not enough hours in my day as it is
The simple bottom line fact is..... when confronted with a mass of data like that I just move on so it is totally self-defeating to post something like that so save yourself a lot of time and trouble as I personally do not have the time to wade through it all and IDK who else any of it is relevant to.
OK?
If you have a specific point to make then make it short and sweet otherwise save yourself ( and me ) a lot of time and aggravation.
Last edited by DRG; April 3rd, 2022 at 02:11 PM..
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April 4th, 2022, 03:57 AM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
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Re: MBT's
The following was an item that was brought up as an issue needing further clarification on Ukraine's ATGW missiles. This source will be/is better than what we have because it's made by...
https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/
Under the " umbrella" state arms supplier UKROBORONSERVICE (Russian counterpart Rosoboronexport) both listed below if you want to buy a tank.
https://en.uos.ua/
https://roe.ru/eng/
Here specifically are all things ATGW's from Ukraine.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...kombat-i-konus
Highlights of KOMBAT as used on the following tanks: "... T-72, T-80UD and OPLOT main battle tanks equipped with fire control systems compatible with it."
"The missile’s tandem warhead enables it to defeat targets fitted with explosive reactive armor with a first-round hit probability of 0.8-0.9. " If you "split the difference" that makes the minimum average hit probability at 85%.
This is important from Para. 2 ...
"The KOMBAT has four-fold-out fins at its extreme rear and offers an effective range of 5,000 m which it covers in 17 seconds (That's fast in the world of ATGW's at that range). With a mass overall of 30 kilos, the missile is far heavier than Russian counterparts, such as the 125mm REFLEX with a maximum range of 5,000 meters, and the BASTION which fires from 100mm rifled guns to ranges of up to 4,000 meters. A tandem shaped-charge warhead makes up almost half of the KOMBAT’s length, allowing a heavier explosive payload to be delivered to the target. The warhead weighs 9kg, including a 3kg explosive charge (it is by far heavier than the warhead featured in the REFLEX), contributing considerably to the missile’s armor piercing capability, which, again, much exceeds that of the REFLEX.
It is important the reader understands that the Ukraine had operated these missiles (REFLEX) for a VERY long time and still does as far as I can determine. Just like also they built those tanks for the Russian army that are using them now in country, a little " irony" there.
Quick notes: 5000m effective range/ 3kg explosive shaped charge tandem hollow charge warhead/ 750mm armor penetration behind ERA. You can "substitute after it penetrates the ERA, it'll still go through 750mm of steel armor. I wouldn't want to be in a tank without any ERA, because that would probably be your last day in that tank.
All other ATGW missiles are listed on in the right-hand column including helo, 105mm, 100mm and other systems including 30mm ZTM-1/ZTM-2 AC.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...kombat-i-konus
The above was originally posted on August 29, 2017 @ 12:07am Page 68 Post 676. I verified the sites are current, though posted before in other past posts the Russian sites were added this fine early morning. The data has not changed, though as I seem to remember a couple of items weren't service at the time of posting. I could be wrong about that though. All weapons have been in service since 2017 or before.
Point Made.
Before I go, look what I found? You'll notice one of the sources for the " doubters" is SIPRI, imagine that from the Congressional Research Service. Anyway, a good read on the Russian weapons industry ordered by Congress as things were heating up late last Fall in the Ukraine.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46937
Well, it's 0350 here which begs the question, do you know where your bed is? I'm going to try to find mine. .
Regards,
Pat
__________________
"Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the art of war their particular study, and by those who are present at the scene of the action, who see the enemy, who see the advantages that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ship, are sharers of the danger." - Roman General Lucius Paulus
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; April 4th, 2022 at 02:45 PM..
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April 4th, 2022, 09:14 PM
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Lieutenant General
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Kingsland, GA.
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Re: MBT's
I think I saw a Russian tank that supposedly is operating in Ukraine that I haven't seen until MAYBE this evening. At this time, I will not divulge the type I believe I saw. I will say it might be a T-80 type, however, I feel it's something else based on only the view from the news feed.
You have to go to where you can watch " The CBS Evening News" w/Norah O'Donnel for 4 April 2022. You'll need to be ready at the 6m 30s mark to freeze/or slow the video before the 6m 38s mark. The tank in ? will be moving through a bombed out residential area from Right to Left on your screen. Also note a couple of trees between you and the tank as it's moving.
I'll provide my answer in a couple of nights. In fairness Don will be informed before that. It's not a game just seeking input/opinions on the matter.
Saw a Ukrainian tank (T-72) towing on the road (CNN) a undamaged fairly new looking Russian tank that it seems the crew just abandoned for whatever reason possibly just ran out of fuel. It was filmed in Eastern Ukraine. Crazy! They didn't even attempt to disable it.
For you Scenario and Campaign builders, I'm also reposting the following here. This is normally a paid subscription item for FREE for I don't know how long.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...ukraine-crisis
I better get to watching Vikings Valhalla or CINCLANTHOME will ensure all future posts will be coming from there!?! 
Regards,
Pat
__________________
"Commanders should be counseled chiefly by persons of known talent, by those who have made the art of war their particular study, and by those who are present at the scene of the action, who see the enemy, who see the advantages that occasions offer, and who, like people embarked in the same ship, are sharers of the danger." - Roman General Lucius Paulus
Last edited by FASTBOAT TOUGH; April 5th, 2022 at 02:41 AM..
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