Proportions mod: So confusing!

[PvK]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
All you need for essentially infinite energy with no fuel problems is a net gain deuterium fusion reactor. The amount of D2 available in the Oceans is so massive that it would easily Last for longer than we've been recording our history.

That depends on the characteristics of the technology. A fusion reactor has properties like mass, required components, and a rate of efficiency. Mere "net gain" is not sufficient, if it doesn't produce enough to be effective, relative to its own mass, the mass of fuel per energy produced, its reliability, and the expense and sub-components required to produce and operate.

Again, you seem to me to be assuming that everyone starts out with a technology built in to all units that actually exceeds the abilities of the Quantum Reactor. Or, something close. I don't make that assumption at all. If I did, there would be a really cheap quantum reactor component available. But there isn't. Supplies are a major part of the gameplay in Proportions. If I follow your prediction for the easy bounty of fusion power, then maybe I would add a really cheap quantum reactor component. But I don't think it would improve either realism or interestness of play. Personally, I think quantum reactors unconvincing and boring, since they eliminate one of the major elements of play, which is why I extended that line of components the way I did in Proportions. I suppose you can decide that efficient engines, supply storage, and solar collectors and/or sails can represent this sort of technology in Proportions, but notice there are trade-offs in performance.

quote:

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One problem I have with imagining such high basic abilities, is that with those abilities, the raw materials and empty space provided by alien planets seem to me like they wouldn't be particularly helpful. The raw materials of a single planet would probably be more than enough to provide for all the needs of such an advanced techology. The main advantages of spreading out would be dispersion and maneuver, not providing "used up resources" or "room to study".

Exponential growth requires exponential room. Population growth is exponential.

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I find these two postulates massively less compelling than my two arguments above. Besides, I thought you were saying that population wasn't necessary - all you need is a teenage master 4X game player, some opposite-sex companions, and an ever-increasing self-replicating legion of robots who can produce any component given only some frozen irradiated water and some rocks, right?

Soon, the robots will swarm to cover the entire surface of every planet they can reach, constantly turning rocks into massive baseships with no supply requirements.

Sounds like it might make an interesting mod, but a very different one from Proportions, which is all about overcoming the difficulties, and having to face multiple trade-offs and decisions at once, instead of just having the magic technology to make everything possible. Or, maybe your view isn't a mod at all - the standard SE4 set seems pretty much in line with what you're suggesting, except that everyone should start with Quantum Reactors.

PvK

[ October 23, 2002, 06:44: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Fyron]

This "debate" is really funny.

Graeme Dice, no offense, but you have completely missed almost all of (if not all of) PvK's points, and you are insanely wrong about how advanced humans will be in a few centuries.

[ October 23, 2002, 09:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

Ok, relax there Fyron. Up till now we've had an interesting, thoughtful debate between two intelligent people who sincerely have differing views of the future. Let's not make it personal, and let's not forget none of us knows the future. Either of them could be right, or neither. It seems to me that both of them have done a good job of understanding what the other is saying, they just don't agree. Nothing wrong with that. That is one of the reasons for the forum.

Geoschmo

[ October 23, 2002, 13:05: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Mylon]

Remember what a lot of people said couldn't be done. Think how much of that we're doing on a daily basis today (mostly flying).

Technology advances pretty quickly. Just 25-30 years ago we were still using vaccuum tubes.

[oleg]

Originally posted by Mylon:
Remember what a lot of people said couldn't be done. Think how much of that we're doing on a daily basis today (mostly flying).

Technology advances pretty quickly. Just 25-30 years ago we were still using vaccuum tubes.

30 years ago we were on Moon. Where are we now ?
Nay, progress is greatly overrated.

[DirectorTsaarx]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ok, relax there Fyron. Up till now we've had an interesting, thoughtful debate between two intelligent people who sincerely have differing views of the future. Let's not make it personal, and let's not forget none of us knows the future. Either of them could be right, or neither. It seems to me that both of them have done a good job of understanding what the other is saying, they just don't agree. Nothing wrong with that. That is one of the reasons for the forum.

Geoschmo

I'm surprised you had to remind IF about that... he's usually pretty good about correcting the rest of us:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron (in thread Shield Regen V ):
...please choose your words more carefully in future Posts. That post could be viewed as the beginning of a flame. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and has the same rights to post them. If we disagree, that is perfectly fine.

[geoschmo]

Now Director. Don't make me bring the smack down on you, ok? Just let it slide. Everyone is entitled to a mispeak now and then.