Carry Capacity for Jeep, Kuebelwagen, etc.

[Imp]

Hi Chuck I see your point about riders but would say this.
Russia used tank riders virtually through out the war firstly to run away even on little tankettes (some of which probably do have to high but its a generic figure & you do the research) From late 42 seem to use a lot. Allies Brits etc did not use as much & not really till late 43 from what I can see. Guess news traveled slower then so took a while before someone heard about Crazy Ivan. Do not ask me about minor powers not wasting more time.

Utility vehicles yes with a carry capacity of 6 affects game play could fit 2 ATGM teams in. Not really worried thats a big loss if I lose it & if they really wanted them there a man or ammo would be left behind. You cant split teams so if had several vehicles & wanted to send ATGMs & scouts you would end up needing more vehicles than you would need in a pinch.
Come to that ATGM teams as do a lot of units have generic ammo 4 units so thats wrong.

Given the scale of the game the amount of research required to get every unit for every timeframe right is enormous so I can live with it. Basicaly I would not do it so dont expect game guys to. I do think a few issues with modern APCs, some cannons seem to have very low ammo counts so I tend to stick with MG variety in that case. It does not bother me enough to get off my arse & check it out.

I have modded mobile AT guns as do not like the way its set up. AT guns with an engine are modeled as vehicles so cant be towed but are very slow like speed 5. By changing to foot as move is so small they have the same movement capability. I have sacrificed the ability for them to bog so that they can be towed as to me this is more important.

The whole point is in the grand scheme of things its not important its a game always will be but it does a better job of replicating battle than any other despite covering such a vast timeframe & nations. Can you imagine the amount of research time that has gone into getting this to where it is today then tinkering with code blah blah

Tailor it using house rules & if need be OOB editor to suite your view of what is correct

If you wanted to you could mod all British tanks prior to 43 to have no carry capacity but to have after. A much easier way of course is house rules to cover these little problems that way the tank crew could still hitch a ride to safety if only a tank is near.
Ban the use of riders except to extract its that simple.

I regulary use house rules to add flavour or get round game restrictions such as
All arty in same troop must be within contact distance (2 hexes) not spread out.
Should probably be closer.
Rename ammo trucks if allow as generic to type like arty tank helo, Only correct unit type can reload at. Still not right but better.
First turn or 2 only scouts & their transports can move arty suitably delayed changes flavour of a game & lets them do the job.
Loads more all for variety.
Simple things like saying lets have a high tech clash all infantry mech & dont buy the cheap ones. Gives you a diffrent game as people tend to buy 2 cheap instead of 1 expensive. Just because you have Tigers dont buy them every time you play Germans how boring is that.
Oh thats another house rule you have cause Tigers were not used in N Africa till later

As I said originaly everything is relative to me this is a minor issue I can work around if it bothered me.

Now if we could sort guns so have 3 or 4 classes of limbering from quick to slow to stop things like 88s moving that would be a welcome change but sadly this is an old beast & if it could be done I think they would have so I have not suggested it.
OK should not have made that coffee DRG has beat me at the typing stakes

[DRG]

The issue with jeeps and utility vehicles in general is it's something you can put your HQ in . OK.... it may be "gamey" to some to allow that but I can live with it and so can 99% of the people who play but there will always be the rare few that get bent out of shape if a unit has two seats and we give it a capacity of 4.


Don

[DRG]

Chuck, it wasn't just the Russians that did this and you know it or should so no........ we are not going to restrict tank riding to one nation. I think you make these suggestions because you really do no think through what's actually involved and what impact it would make on the game and who else might not like your bright ideas.

FYI looking into tank rider casualties was put on the " to investigate" list some time ago. When the next update is released you can decide whether this lives up to your "standards" or not but generally, if you haven't clued in by now, most of what you complain about and most of what you think we should do to change the game to suit you isn't at the top of our priorities.

Don

[chuckfourth]

Originally Posted by DRG

Chuck, it wasn't just the Russians that did this and you know it or should so no........ we are not going to restrict tank riding to one nation. I think you make these suggestions because you really do no think through what's actually involved and what impact it would make on the game and who else might not like your bright ideas.
Don

Hi DRG
As you dont like me to write long posts Im trying to keep them short. So to qualify my previous statement about tank riders what I mean is that only the Russians had a tank desant -formation-, what im calling 'tank riders' (Of course there is an exception, apparently the Germans had desant troops on stugs late in the war). Other armies had 'infantry riding on tanks' not 'tank riders'. The distinction is important because of the other two major combatants UK and USA 'infantry riding on tanks' is in reality extremely rare. This is because both these armies are fully motorised. Why ride a tank when there is a truck available. Any desant activities must then be on a very ad-hoc basis.
I have thought it out, Ive never used them in over one hundred PBEM and have had no problems, and its no problem to implemet as its a simple OOB change, just make Carrying capacities for tanks one less than the size of that countries infantry squad, and as always happy to do the work for you.
Judging by the tone of you and Andies replies to my posts Im pretty sure you guys dont like any of my bright ideas, unluckily for you this doesnt stop me enjoying your game. As for the playing population clearly gamey players despise me and realism nuts appreciate my input.
Thanks for looking into the casualty aspect of this.
Best Regards Chuck

[DRG]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

I have thought it out, Ive never used them in over one hundred PBEM and have had no problems, and its no problem to implement as its a simple OOB change, just make Carrying capacities for tanks one less than the size of that countries infantry squad, and as always happy to do the work for you.

See Chuck here's the problem. You get these "bright ideas" but don't think them through. It's way too easy to run to the forum and start typing.

So lets assume we do institute what I consider one of the most dumbassed ideas you've had yet and then the really smart people ( or "gamey" if you prefer ) load their tanks with scouts , AT and MG units and whatever else is available that fits within that artificially created limit you propose.

And you've accomplished what exactly other than a reason to ask for further restrictions???

See......... here's the thing about choice....any kind of choice. No matter what it is inevitable that SOMEBODY will abuse it and if we attempt to penalize the few that abuse it we actually penalize all the people who don't abuse it as well. Yes, western allied armies tended towards mechanization ( but were NOT "fully motorized" that would imply EVERY infantry unit rode wherever they went and there are many thousands of veterans who would laugh out loud at the suggestion ) more than German or Russian and for the Russians, and later the Germans, tank riding was more necessity than option but the fact remains western allied infantry DID, on occasion, ride tanks into battle, maybe not so much into direct combat as the Russians and later the Germans did but ride on tanks they did and this latest bright idea of yours, designed, solely it seems, to keep your PBEM opponents from doing this, penalizes and restricts something that neither Andy, not I, think needs restricting and you are, in fact, the lone person to ever think the OOB's should be altered to prevent it.

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Judging by the tone of you and Andies replies to my posts Im pretty sure you guys dont like any of my bright ideas,

Ya think ??

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

unluckily for you this doesnt stop me enjoying your game. As for the playing population clearly gamey players despise me and realism nuts appreciate my input.
Thanks for looking into the casualty aspect of this.
Best Regards Chuck

It's interesting the way you set yourself up as the enemy of "gamey players " and the righteous defender of "realism nuts" but I personally reject both extremes. There will always be conflict between the playabilty and realism factions in wargames and this game, or any game cannot appeal 100% to both at once so we try for the "happy middle" and try to ignore the whiners at the extremes


Don

[thatguy96]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

The distinction is important because of the other two major combatants UK and USA 'infantry riding on tanks' is in reality extremely rare. This is because both these armies are fully motorised. Why ride a tank when there is a truck available.

Not even in the slightest. The US Army and British Army were very far from fully motorized. Most truck elements organic to US Infantry Divisions were taken up with moving supplies and equipment around regardless.

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

Any desant activities must then be on a very ad-hoc basis.

Ad hoc does not equal rare. Just because there wasn't necessarily a specific understanding of when, where, and how, doesn't mean it didn't happen. The 1994 USMC manual on tank operations still has a section specifically on how to seat tank riders and the precautions that should be taken into consideration when doing so. The seating plan is for a full USMC squad.

Some examples:

Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3

Picture 4

[PanzerBob]

Good day, all

I don't know if this would make me a Defender Of Chuck!! But I'd like to mention Chuck's posts right or wrong have sure taught me a lot on what goes into behind the code if you will of this game. Whether you realise it or not everytime you guys get into "it" with Chuck I learn more and more. I'm glad to see despite the heated air which you spar in ALL of you still rise to the ocassion, it makes for some interesting threads. I'll admit sometimes I come here for humour whether it is intended or not, that is also served with a lot of good information of all sorts about OUR Game.

Steel Panther uber alles

Bob out

[DRG]

Chuck has been told many times that MOBHack is provided so people can tweak things the way they prefer them to be .

Don