Some beginner gameplay and strategies questions

[Hrum]

This doesn't answer your general questions, but I think the guys here have already addressed those better than I could.

However, since I recently ran across this LA Ermor AAR written by Calahan and you're playing against Ermor I thought this might be of interest to you:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...033#post709033

It isn't a turn by turn DAR/AAR, it's more like a wrap-up of how his game went / how victory was achieved with Ermor. I thought it was a great read. It's interesting not just if you're interested in playing Ermor, but also in terms of what his concerns were - what opponent strategies / tactics might have potentially posed the greatest risk to his nation of undead.

You probably already know about Banishment and Cleansing Water, but just in case you weren't aware of how useful they are against undead, here's a breakdown of what they do at various mage path levels (hopefully I did my math right on these)...

Banishment (AN, resisted by MR, base fat 0)
H1 dmg 5; aoe 4; rg 20; fat 0 + enc
H2 dmg 7; aoe 6; rg 25; fat 0 + enc
H3 dmg 9; aoe 8; rg 30; fat 0 + enc

Cleansing Water (Evo 6, AN, not resistable, base fat 20)
W2 dmg 5; aoe 4; rg 20; fat 20 + enc
W3 dmg 6; aoe 5; rg 25; fat 10 + enc
W4 dmg 7; aoe 6; rg 30; fat 7 + enc

Of course, if you're using Amhazair's Bane Lord example SC/thug, it may not be ideal to have mages in the same army spamming low precision anti-undead spells. Although, with the decent MR of the Bane Lord you could probably get away with the Banishment spamming - Cleansing Water not so much. You could always just have the Bane Lord operate independently from your anti-undead magic spammers.

I feel like there are some great anti-undead spells that death mages have access to, but I can't recall what they are at the moment. In early/mid-game I mean (before undead mastery)..?

--
Edit: rdonj beat me to the punch on Cleansing Water, and also answered my question re: Wither Bones.

[Olm]

Regarding expansion with combat pretenders:

Don't neglect protection! IMO prot 12 is by far not enough, especially if you haven't got a decent shield.
All your fear, awe and even petrification of the Gorgon (a great SC pretender!) will help you nothing against a good bunch of ranged units.
As MA Man I met a Wyrm as well as a Prince of Death early in the game with a medium sized army of Longbowmen (~30).
The Wyrm barely escaped due to his high HP, the PoD due to flying. They both didn't stand a chance.
So prepare for ranged units. High protection is the easiest. If you don't have it you should have ethearelness, mistform, air shield or something the like.

[Amhazair]

Originally Posted by Olm

Regarding expansion with combat pretenders:

Don't neglect protection! IMO prot 12 is by far not enough, especially if you haven't got a decent shield.
All your fear, awe and even petrification of the Gorgon (a great SC pretender!) will help you nothing against a good bunch of ranged units.
As MA Man I met a Wyrm as well as a Prince of Death early in the game with a medium sized army of Longbowmen (~30).
The Wyrm barely escaped due to his high HP, the PoD due to flying. They both didn't stand a chance.
So prepare for ranged units. High protection is the easiest. If you don't have it you should have ethearelness, mistform, air shield or something the like.

Then again, 30 longbowmen is a more serious ranged* threat than you'll find in most any independent province, while the independents will at the same time be more predictable due to (lack of) scripting. It's true medium protection won't come even close to save you in and of itself, but it's enough to lower the damage from the average hit enough to survive the few that come through when coupled with other defences. (Awe and massive fear for PoD, Awe, fear and regeneration for the Wyrm, to take the ones you mentioned. Both of which are classic examples of exapnsion pretenders who make do with medium protection.)


* The ranged part is important here, since ranged attacks ignore awe. Against independents this can be partially worked around by standing far back and scripting a couple of holds before attacking, leading to the archers shooting from maximum range, which, coupled with significantly worse stats than your Manx longbowmen will have most arrows scatter around the target and hit their own melee buddies instead, with the ones that do hit doing an average** of -2 damage due to protection. This is though, why I included massed crosbowmen to the "dangerous" independents, as crossbow shots do have the punch to do damage when they do actually hit.

** Can't remember what's the actual statistical term for what I'm trying to say. Median maybe? In any case, you know what I mean.

[parone]

plus, remmember Man's longbowmen are bada**, higher stregnth and precision. and with any buffs(read windaid or fire) they are an awesome anti SC/anti thug weapon if the appropriate counter measures aren't taken.

counters to counters to counters...that's why everytime you click on the message that says "there was a battle it..."it's cool, even if you mostly get smoked, like me

[parone]

one semi negative about LA ermor, tho, is basically, you have to rush them. and it is a non productive rush(for the rusher). other players who are scouting can wait for you to rush, then hit your back door.

so you can be kind of damd if you do, damd if you don't vs LA Ermor. i have no idea how you would nerf them, since they r so different from other nations, and i am very inexperienced.

but it would seem something could be done to make them easier to play against.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by parone

one semi negative about LA ermor, tho, is basically, you have to rush them. and it is a non productive rush(for the rusher). other players who are scouting can wait for you to rush, then hit your back door.

so you can be kind of damd if you do, damd if you don't vs LA Ermor. i have no idea how you would nerf them, since they r so different from other nations, and i am very inexperienced.

but it would seem something could be done to make them easier to play against.

That's only if you're playing with suicidal people, because stabbing Ermor's neighbours gives Ermor a better chance at survival, which means it gets more time to nuke more provinces and generate an unstoppable critical mass. Then everybody dies. It's in nobody's interest to help Ermor in any way, shape or form.

Also, if you get do rush them early, it's not a 100% unproductive deal: you get 15 shiny death gems per turn out of it, as well as whatever D sites Ermor had been in a hurry to uncover (and those provinces likely won't be raided either, since they'll starve everyone and don't produce a single coin). Plus, y'know, you're not in danger of getting rolled by Ermor any more, so there's that too .

[Legendary League]

The Virtue and Moloch are also powerful expansion gods (in CBM), though you need to be careful with the virtue early on as it cannot face heavy cavalry until a level or two of research in alteration (for personal luck and eventual mistform). Twist fate+air shield early on in conjunction with naturally high awe allows the Virtue to take on most indies barring undead (and before other alteration buffs). The Moloch starts out with fear (which can be boosted) and combined with the imp screen it starts with to soak up arrows also clears indies fast.

[Legendary League]

I would suggest trying to field net 0 encumbrance thugs, like a kitted out Ancestor Smith with the right equipment and the selfbuffs it can cast. As LA T'ien C'hi, you have alot of access to anti-undead spells like Solar Rays, Cleansing Water, Blade Wind, and communion'd banishments (less effective against shielded chaff), and Earthquake (would definitely recommend this if you're dealing with large armies of chaff). Ermor's power lies in their army of chaff, and some of their major battle magics (Darkness, etc.) are difficult to deal with combined with their army buffs (Power and Protection of the Sepulchre, the latter is defensive and MR negates easily, so it's not as bad as the former, while the former is a considerable Attack Skill and Movement buff), and grotesquely large numbers. Best way to beat them is with power battle magics of your own, blessed or elite units designed to defeat them (normally with a high enough Earth bless to keep them 0 fatigue), or thugs and SCs designed to counter Ermor.

[bbz]

Yea you can wish for population. but its not worth it. Even with growth 3 provinces that have very few people left, won't be able to get back to normal before the game is over probably.(the other thing is getting a lucky event of some people migrating to that province, but that is not with neutral scales you need luck and growth I think to unlock that event)

Because of how hard it is to recuperate a dead province, In late game wishing for armageddon(2-3 times) is a good counter against blood hunting nations.

[Zywack]

First, a question: Does having enough temples boost your dominion strength, or does it only increase your amount of holy points? The reason I ask is because I took over a player's place who disapeared in a multiplayer game: I figured it'd be good experience for me no matter what happens and I'd be helping out the other people by enabling them to continue without turning over the country to AI. The country I took over is in a DISASTROUS state: For example, 3 provinces at turn 13 with a tiny army: I assume that the most of the army has been lost to independents, and what's left is sneaking 3 province away for reasons I can't even begin to understand. I realize I've got absolutely no shot at winning the game with a position like that but I'm implementing a desperation plan that just might enable me to grow up substancially with an acceptable army before the forced peace wears off (Thank you very much to the other players in the game). I can't win, but if the current turn extremely risky battle is won, the rest of the plan should work and I should at least be able to bloody the nose of whoever comes for my territory. If I can do that much, I'll be happy with my game, it'll be good experience and at least the closer players won't get gem income for free so everyone wins.

The thing that terrifies me the most though (amongst all the other horrible things I have to cope with of course) is that the pretender I inherited has a dominion strength of 2... Two. So while it's highly unlikely I'd ever get to enough income, province or even time to have it be possible, if the impossible somehow happen, would it be possible to increase my dominion strength through a large amount of temples?


For the whole thug/sc discussion, thank you very much everyone! It's extremely enlightening and I'll be trying out those ideas: At the state the current game is in, I can afford to try out many of those suggestions, especially since I now have a province that can produce Enchantress which gives me Fire Access (Hidden in Sand is a good idea but I found the site before I could build a lab in a swamp).

I had a Sleeper already on hand so I geared him up with a cross between rdonj and Amhazair suggestions (plus reinvigoration boots): I unfortunately only had the occassion to fight two small battles with him so far (battles I'd have won with few losses even if he weren't there) but at least he got out of them in top shape so it's looking good. It gives me a good base to work with: Now that I have something that works, I can start tweaking the commanders and items in reasonable fashion as situation warrants. I'll be sure to try out the Ancestor Smiths and the Bane Lord ideas too although I'd be a bit scared of the Bane Lord with all the banishes flying around.

I hadn't tried Cleansing Water since Banish seemed to be equal in damage and area but without a fatigue cost (and 100% of my mages have holy 1 in the first place), but I hadn't noticed the "No resist" clause on Cleansing Water...

Regarding Earthquake, doesn't that spell hit the entire battlefield including my own troops? Although, none of my troops or commander would die from a single earthquake and since I'm the one with all the arrows and banishes, it just might be worth the tradeoff...

I haven't tried communions yet, but it's definitively something I should practice with very soon.

Regarding Ermor, yes I agree that fighting them is extremely annoying... I did hit them as soon as I could, but due to our relative position, they had over 30 provinces by the time we were neighboors. Taking a province from them adds no economic benefit whatsoever (and it often simply increase your front size) unless it has gem production, you need +supply items and whenever I saw them taking a province from another player I had to rush to take it back before it killed off all the population. In a multiplayer game, I admit I'd most likely be inclined to fight them with everything I have early on even though it'd likely mean my own death at the hands of other players...

Oh! Question: How do you make your mages buff your Thug? Like with Quickness for example: The area it affects is simply tiny. How do I 'guarantee' or at least improve my chance that my mage cast Quickness (or other buff) on my thug instead of some random PD or a group of heavy cavalry?