Current game effects of thermobaric ammo

[Mobhack]

Not only that, being thermobaric (Fuel-Air Explosive) it rips all the local oxygen right out of the air to fuel the explosion (The bomb provides the fuel cloud, the environment the air), and that includes any residing in the lungs of anyone unlucky to be caught in there too.

(In that it is somewhat similar to flame-throwers & napalm - the primary thing those did was to consume the limited air in a targeted bunker(or tank) to fuel the petroleum fire, and so asphyxiate the defenders or force them out into the flame seeking oxygen. Choke effect as much as toast.)

The FAE "explosion" does not happen at one point (like an HE shell) but happens all around the cloud of fuel the bomb had dispersed prior to the ignition event. Everything basically goes off at once, and you get multiple shock waves and debris coming from all angles, not just from the single point source of an HE explosion. If the grunts in the fuel cloud have breathed in any fuel droplets in the time before ignition, nasty.

Basically a manufactured version of a flour/grain elevator or coal-dust mine explosion, or a domestic gas leak.

Again flame-throwers can be used to 'roll your own FAE' - it was common practice in WW2 for Churchill Crocodiles to hose down a bunker with raw unlit fuel and let it soak in for a few seconds, to emit petroleum vapour which would pool in the enclosed spaces of the building as the fuel splashed about. Then fire a final live flame shot for a nice big WHUMP.

In Real Life - FAE are subject to atmospheric conditions (wind, rain, fog, etc) which can cause them to fizzle.

Cheers
Andy

[Wdll]

Let's see if I am more clear this time.
One "shell" of the Tos-1 falling in a hex that there are 4 Merkava 4s, it destroys all of them. This, I feel being too much powerful for my (and my opponent) taste. Why is it that difficult to just accept that we have this view on it that doesn't necessarily mean you guys haven done something wrong?

I don't know if it is accurate or not. I guess we are not going to find out before someone use it in real life against them.

I am fine with it, I just refuse to use it.

But since you continue with this, is anything going to change with the way CM artillery works and i ts efficiency in the surrounding+ hexes it hits?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Wdll

But since you continue with this, is anything going to change with the way CM artillery works and its efficiency in the surrounding+ hexes it hits?

Given that CM isn't the topic of this thread and was only mentioned in passing by you on post #8 and there are no other active threads discussing CM effects and you are the only one who has expressed an opinion about it's effects right now I'd have to say no.

Start a new thread and lets see what everyone has to say

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Wdll

Let's see if I am more clear this time.
One "shell" of the Tos-1 falling in a hex that there are 4 Merkava 4s, it destroys all of them. This, I feel being too much powerful for my (and my opponent) taste. Why is it that difficult to just accept that we have this view on it that doesn't necessarily mean you guys haven done something wrong?

I don't know if it is accurate or not. I guess we are not going to find out before someone use it in real life against them.

I am fine with it, I just refuse to use it.

But since you continue with this, is anything going to change with the way CM artillery works and i ts efficiency in the surrounding+ hexes it hits?

I have zero issues with CM or various other area effect rounds destroying multiple targets in a hex (or surrounding ones).
I do however find it immensely amusing when an aircraft fired Maverick kills two or more targets or one in an adjacent hex. I assume this is an unintended but unavoidable side effect of warhead size.

[Mobhack]

No, as we have constantly pointed out, air weapons are High Explosive (when not specifically CM or Napalm). That includes Mavericks or air cannons. HE will attack all in the same and sometimes surrounding hexes.

There are no HEAT fixed-wing air PGM, all are effectively a form of LGB.

Andy

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

No, as we have constantly pointed out, air weapons are High Explosive (when not specifically CM or Napalm). That includes Mavericks or air cannons. HE will attack all in the same and sometimes surrounding hexes.

There are no HEAT fixed-wing air PGM, all are effectively a form of LGB.

Andy

Yup, as I said, unintended but unavoidable side effect of the game code. As you say air weapons "work like they work", and without some serious recoding (which ain't gonna happen) we can just chuckle at them from time-to-time.

I've played around a bit with the Pen & Kill numbers on various bombs and air-launched missiles (and gotten some very amusing results) but haven't stumbled across and set of Pen/Kill values that "work better" then the ones used in the game now. I have however had some success adjusting Warhead Size that reduces the frequency (reducing, not eliminating) of adjacent/same hex colatteral kills from missiles. So far I havn't done an extensive experiment to see if it's also reducing the lethality to the target as well, one has to assume it is, how much I can't say at the moment.

[Imp]

I have however had some success adjusting Warhead Size that reduces the frequency (reducing, not eliminating) of adjacent/same hex colatteral kills from missiles. So far I havn't done an extensive experiment to see if it's also reducing the lethality to the target as well, one has to assume it is, how much I can't say at the moment.

Latest WW2 patch has a tool that will let you find out, assume it works across both OOBs, slightly less Pen & less effective vs units in cover will be the result I think.

[Suhiir]

OOB 11 (Russia)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#032 RMG RG Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=50 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=35
#033 TBG-7V Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=11 HEK=55 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=33
#119 ATO FT Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#171 TPO FT Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=30 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=20

WC=9 (Veh Flame)
#117 ATO VFT Acc=20 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=40 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25
#244 220mm FAE Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=22 HEK=140 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=66

WC=18 (Napalm)
#031 RPO Shmel Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=9 HEK=45 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
#068 RPO Shmel-M Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=11 HEK=60 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=30
#076 RPO Rys Acc=15 Whd=3 HEP=6 HEK=30 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=20
#219 ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

OOB 12 (US Army)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#047 40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12
#119 Flamethrower Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#161 Fougasse Acc=20 Whd=55 HEP=11 HEK=110 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25

WC=18 (Napalm)
#166 FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#223 Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

OOB 13 (USMC)

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
#030 40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12
#119 Flamethrower Acc=30 Whd=45 HEP=0 HEK=25 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=14
#161 Fougasse Acc=20 Whd=55 HEP=11 HEK=110 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=25

WC=18 (Napalm)
#162 SMAW-NE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=2 HEK=27 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
#185 CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#221 Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#223 Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

Ok, given the above data from the current version of the game :

WC=8 (Inf Flame)
RMG RG Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=50 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=35
TBG-7V Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=11 HEK=55 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=33
40mm TB Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=4 HEK=10 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=12

I'm wondering if the HEP rating on the 40mm TB might be a tad low.

WC=18 (Napalm)
OOB 12 (US Army)
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=4 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14
OOB 13 (USMC)
#239 66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14

Different Warhead size.

WC=18 (Napalm)
RPO Shmel Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=9 HEK=45 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27
RPO Shmel-M Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=11 HEK=60 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=30
RPO Rys Acc=15 Whd=3 HEP=6 HEK=30 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=20
66mm Rkt Acc=20 Whd=2 HEP=7 HEK=28 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=14
SMAW-NE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=2 HEK=27 AP Pen=222 HEAT Pen=27

I'm thinking the SMAW-NE might have a higher Acc given the 9mm spotter.

RPO Shmel, 93mm, 2.1kg warhead.
SMAW-NE, 83mm, between 4.35kg and 6.9kg round weight (no specific warhead weight data I could find, I'd assume about 1/2 the round weight so apx. 2 to 3.5kg).

Given this perhaps the HEP, HEK, and HEAT Pen might be reconsidered.

Also the 66mm Rkt uses a 0.61kg napalm warhead and has a higher HEP then the SMAW-NE.

WC=18 (Napalm)
ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

Look at HEK, Napalm=50 & 100, FAE=100 & 200, CBU=190.
Might 190 be a bit low for the CBU?

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Suhiir

Napalm 250 Acc=5 Whd=3 HEP=5 HEK=50 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
Napalm 500 Acc=5 Whd=5 HEP=10 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
CBU Incen Acc=101 Whd=3 HEP=19 HEK=190 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

Look at HEK, Napalm=50 & 100, FAE=100 & 200, CBU=190.
Might 190 be a bit low for the CBU?

IDK, the Acc=101 makes it the most accurate "napalm" weapon in the game and there are only three weapons with a higher HEP.

There is no other "CBU" more accurate and no other "cluster" weapon that's even close for HEKill.

Don

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by DRG

IDK, the Acc=101 makes it the most accurate "napalm" weapon in the game and there are only three weapons with a higher HEP.

There is no other "CBU" more accurate and no other "cluster" weapon that's even close for HEKill.

Don

For the HEK I was looking at in in relation to :

ZAB-500 Acc=20 Whd=5 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
ZAB-250 Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=8 HEK=100 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0
FAE Acc=20 Whd=3 HEP=15 HEK=200 AP Pen=0 HEAT Pen=0

rather then "plain" napalm.

If the Acc=101 isn't a typo then the 10 less HEK compared to a 500# FAE is well and truly irrelevant. I sorta assumed the Acc=101 might be a typo (gee, and we know what assuming gets you)