HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING - Page 4

Executor · #1 July 28th, 2009, 09:14 AM

Hinnom is still overpowered and that's a fact.

They still have Melqarts that can take out any indie province most of the times even without a bless, which isn't hard to make with the heat free points.
They still have 7 magic schools, everything except water.
The pop eating problem can easily be solved with moving the pop eater to a low level pop province instead of keeping them in the main fort. No pop no unrest.

Troops are still great for the price you pay, Dawn Guards, good stats and magic weapon.
Still have the super deadly chariots that are better than any other tramplers IMO.

Money isn't hard to come by with the great scales you can take even with a good bless.
Expanding is still extra fast with fielding an expanding party every turn.

Loren · #2 July 28th, 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Executor

Still have the super deadly chariots that are better than any other tramplers IMO.

Yeah. I decided to give them a try again. (Note: CBM 1.5) Large map full of Normal AI's. I basically conquered the map with nothing but chariots. Not only that but I never built *ANY* building--this made it hard for a while, there was actually a time where I didn't have dominion on my own capital. I also never picked a fight.

At the time I declared it a win I had 2/3 of the map (and most of what I didn't have was water), climbing dominion, the largest army (as I said, pure chariots), IIRC 4 juggernauts/turn of recruiting and all 5 globals. All border provinces were PD 125.

vfb · #3 July 28th, 2009, 10:56 AM

What I wouldn't give to have some peasant-eaters! Send them to the gold mines, and when all the serfs are toast (or porridge), crank the taxes up to 200.

Baalz · #4 July 28th, 2009, 11:22 AM

Yeah, I have to agree with Executor, a little bit of the heat came off of them with the patch but they're still incredibly powerful. Very strong units, fast and cost effective expansion units, strong and very diverse mages, very strong recruitable SCs, very strong research, strong blood economy, very strong national blood summons, no need to take anything other than very good dominion....basically almost everything I lay out in this guide is still valid.

P3D · #5 July 28th, 2009, 11:31 AM

And I disagree that Hinnom does not need the bless (30% more Dawn guards just won't make the difference compared to E9N4+) but it was debated to exhaustion in the other thread.

JR77 · #6 July 29th, 2009, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baalz

... very strong research ...

I do not really get this one. IMHO this is one of their weak points, but I guess you are thinking of bee-lining const 4 then 6 for skulls and lanterns? That would take quite a while unless you use a sagy pretender (but that is probably a good idea if you want any research done with these guys).

chrispedersen · #7 July 29th, 2009, 03:29 AM

No,

Hinnom doesn't have to build a lab to build a mage. So you stick a fort in a hill or forest. Costs you 800.

You then turn around and move him to a location with no population with a fort/lab so he can research.

It isn't the lack of the cost, although that helps - but the faster scale up is invaluable. In the right terrains you just drop a fort, next turn you have mage support.

JR77 · #8 July 29th, 2009, 03:40 AM

I know this is the case, but that requires the right terrain, as you mention, and they still have an awful research-to-gold ratio. And even with good scales, I would think that money would be an issue, if you want to max recruitment of expensive chariots while building forts and recruiting mages. Unless, of coures, you have a vast area of independent farmland to expand into, but that just happens so rarely to me

.

I agree that they are very powerful, and perhaps one of the more straight-forward nations (in some areas), but I do not think they are "over-powered" to the extend that they should be banned. Also, being able to steamroll a bunch of normal AIs is not really the test for over-powerment imo. I would rather hear how people have fared in MP.

I have not had a chance to play them pre-nerf, but I can see how that was way too powerful...

chrispedersen · #9 July 29th, 2009, 04:07 AM

Well JR

I took a look at them again - because of our upcoming game.

Try this - make a two player game, map albatha. Try stopping Hinnom as EA Arco. or EA Tir. With fixed starting positions, after turn 3 or so - Hinnom is only prevented by taking (turn number) territories per game turn by geography.

While the death dominion of LA ermor may make you choose to attack elsewhere just because you get so little income from it - and the water terrain of LA-Atlantis may stop you - neither of these nations would be in a position of stopping you from conquering anyone else.

The game becomes - who can *not* lose to hinnom.

Baalz · #10 July 29th, 2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR77

I know this is the case, but that requires the right terrain, as you mention, and they still have an awful research-to-gold ratio. And even with good scales, I would think that money would be an issue, if you want to max recruitment of expensive chariots while building forts and recruiting mages. Unless, of coures, you have a vast area of independent farmland to expand into, but that just happens so rarely to me

.

I agree that they are very powerful, and perhaps one of the more straight-forward nations (in some areas), but I do not think they are "over-powered" to the extend that they should be banned. Also, being able to steamroll a bunch of normal AIs is not really the test for over-powerment imo. I would rather hear how people have fared in MP.

I have not had a chance to play them pre-nerf, but I can see how that was way too powerful...

Hmmmm, at the risk of sounding pedantic, did you read the guide that starts this thread? Gold is not an issue if you manage this right, nor is terrain in the vast majority of cases because you can expand insanely fast with modestly priced expansion forces. That means your income climbs much faster than your expenses and you can capture whatever territory you want. FWIW, my experience is not against the AI, and my assertion that you have very strong research is empirically proven.

Ammi are 125 gold for 5 rp (in magic 1) is far from awful, that's actually very good. Even if you manage to scrounge up a better research mage the cost of a lab + temple = another castle, so Hinnom is instantly cranking out twice as many mages as anybody using holy mages. About 60% more than anybody with non-holy mages. In the MP game I based this guide on I just checked where I was at on turn 24 - tied for the research lead with a few SCs fully kitted, 22 blood hunters pulling in about 150 slaves per turn, and cranking out bloodstones. That's quite a lot of forgings (sanguine rods, SC gear, bloodstones) along with a large chunk of bloodhunters for this stage of the game, yet I'm still one of the research leaders. Granted, this is just one game, but I think it's a better illustration than rolling over the AI.