Beware of Ashdod

[MaxWilson]

Zamzummites are better than Ktonian Necromancers in several respects (strat move, HP, Precision, no old age, lower Enc, thuggable, +1 D) and worse in three (cost +20% or so, research -1, -1 F). Much as I love Ktonian Necros I'd say that Zamzummites are far superior. If Ashdod only had Zamzummites and cap-only S3 Talmais as recruitable commanders I would be content--everything else is just gravy. Yeah, just my biases showing, but Zamzummites are awesome.

I really don't see 5 Jaguar Warriors beating a Sheshai Anakite. Or even if they do, 5 Ahiman Anakites can likely kill unlimited numbers of Jaguar Warriors. I think regular units won't be taking down Ahimans short of either 1.) lots of high damage weapons (EA Ulm does okay with Steel Maidens, knights do too) or 2.) Destruction/Iron Bane. Oh, or 3.) Cold dominion and/or swamps for the extra +2 enc. The combination of 0 encumbrance (w/ E10) and high Prot is hard to get past. Non-Earth nations with no Cold dominion like Mictlan will probably struggle (have to ambush them in swamps). However... I'm not at home so I haven't tested this. Maybe you're right and 10 jags really can take down an E10N6 Ahiman in normal terrain.

-Max

[cthulhu]

I'm pretty sure that 5 jaguar warriors with F8W9B9 could easily take an anakite. The problem is that the jaguar warriors would be easy prey to any indie archers backing up the anakites, and would tend to suffer serious attrition even against weak forces.

F8W9B9 jaguar warriors are rather special-purpose units with a special purpose bless, whereas E10N6 or E9N4F4W4 or whatever anakites are good for almost any purpose and the bless helps their spellcasters and SCs too.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by cthulhu

I'm pretty sure that 5 jaguar warriors with F8W9B9 could easily take an anakite. The problem is that the jaguar warriors would be easy prey to any indie archers backing up the anakites, and would tend to suffer serious attrition even against weak forces.

F8W9B9 jaguar warriors are rather special-purpose units with a special purpose bless, whereas E10N6 or E9N4F4W4 or whatever anakites are good for almost any purpose and the bless helps their spellcasters and SCs too.

As I've written many times, F9W9 and then AX or SX
I know that probably the standard counter for jags are archers. An A bless defeats that strategy.

You can, with many variations, make a Dominion 7 pretender. And 7 jags with that F9W9A9 bless will take no losses against virtually any independent. The only time you will lose is when your mictlan priest gets killed via an archer.

Additionally, Mictlan can afford that 999 bless - affording an E9N4F4W4 bless with ashdod is *much* more difficult. Ashdod *needs* a +3 +x scales. You can play a e9X4 bless with ashdod but I am far from convinced its optimal strategy.

I think it would be thematically interesting to balance ashdod by making its castles the equivalent of ermorian - something like 10 admin, available everywhere. These would but a severe damper on ashdods gathering of resources, and hence its ability to produce units.

Again, ashdod is very money and resource intensive. All of its units are expensive. So if you force it to defend against dominion death you are significantly reducing its ability to research or act offensively.

[Zeldor]

cthulhu:

Huh, who would take a bless like that with Mictlan? With MA you can either have W9F9 or W9F9 as it's mainly for eagle warriors. Only EA and LA Mictlan can live with very heavy bless and rely on blood sacred summons.

[AreaOfEffect]

Clearly cthulhu doesn't know a thing about MA Mictlan. Good luck finding a god for F8W9B9.

[cthulhu]

F8W9B9 is not intended as an example of a recommended bless for mictlan, just as a bless which would allow jaguar warriors to trounce the comparable gold cost of anakites. Likewise I'm also not intending to imply any reliance on blood magic except for the bless. I'm aware that taking it requires seriously nasty scales, and isn't much good for anything other than punching through the armor of anakites. ie a "special purpose bless".
W9F9 is not enough to let 5 jaguar warriors reliably kill a well blessed anakite, considering that the anakite resists the fire damage, has more armor than the jaguar warriors base damage in either form even before bezerking, accumulates fatigue much slower, and will be regenerating health reasonably fast.

[Zeldor]

cthulhu:

But examples should be realistic No one will create a nation just to counter one other nation, especially when it's 20 people game. And compare what Mictlan gets in normal forts [Nahuallis are a joke, S1N2 non-sacred mage? compared to Zamzummite?]. Ashdod could be very strong if you take Zamzummites, Talmai Elders and national summons completely from them.

[cleveland]

Z - Are you suggesting you'll be joining the new all MA nations game? Surely you're bored after Kingmaker?

[MaxWilson]

Well, the weird thing is that Ashdod can get E10N6 and still have good scales, whereas F8W9B9 Mictlan will be destroying his economy to get that bless. It's still possible that Mictlan would lose that fight, too, on a gcost basis.

E10N6 Ahiman: 0 enc, Prot 22 all over, att 15/13 and def 16 IIRC, regen 6 HP per turn.
F8W9B9 Jaguar Warrior: att 17 or so (?), str 16 (?), about 21 base damage per hit, 1.5 attacks per round.

You'll have 3-6 jags attacking each Ahiman, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ahimans taking 10+ points of damage each turn (with an "average" damage of -1 it's hard to be sure without running the numbers). Ahiman will regenerate 6 HP per turn. Ahiman has to kill IIRC 6 jags to be cost-effective (on a gcost basis--number varies if you're measuring vs. Prod/Holy/cap-only opportunity cost). I think Mictlan would win this fight but I'd like to be sure.

Of course, as you point out, these jags wither under missile fire. Ashdod doesn't even need indy troops, it can produce human slingers at any fort. Or just cast Body Ethereal on the Ahimans at the start of combat, which would undoubtedly be enough to tip the balance in favor of the Ahimans (3+ points of damage per turn vs. 6 regen, still 0 enc).

-Max

[Zeldor]

cleveland:

Is Ashdod free there? To be honest there is not much action going on in Kingmaker. I take good care of my lands and don't let any visitors in