Anomaly reports

[Richard_H]

Don

I have never set myself up as an 'advisor', these were merely thoughts about an oob which I suspect even you will admit is somewhat out of the ordinary. It is nothing to do with my understanding of the game, indeed I would be surprised if many people realised what the situation was until you explained it.

Let me put it clearly: I don't have to do this exercise, but thought it might be of assistance, as Andy also suggested. However, your attitude does not put me in the frame of mind to continue to try and save you a considerable amount of hard work.

Richard H

[DRG]

In the nearly 14 years I have been doing this I have found , in most cases ( there are exceptions ) the correctors rarely like being corrected back. If you feel qualified to offer page after page after page of "Anomaly reports" then expect to be corrected from time to time when it's obvious you don't have experience in OOB design. If you did you wouldn't suggest an infantry unit class should be given armour ratings. It would seem it's OK to tell us we are in error but not the other way round because that's "attitude". Would it help if I sprinkled more of these around ??

Everything in that post was an explanation of why it was done the way it was done and I only bothered to comment, so perhaps it doesn't happen again, because those two points caught my eye when I was cutting and pasting the info to our "to-check" list .

If you choose to continue your project and make incorrect assumptions expect to be corrected again . If you consider that "attitude" then so be it.


Don

[Suhiir]

Don't take Don personally.
I have a permanent imprint of his teeth in my arse

[DRG]

Right next to the USMC tattoo ......

[Richard_H]

@ Suhiir

Thanks for the reality check!

@ Don

I expect corrections, indeed I welcome them, because it improves my knowledge and understanding. However, there are ways and ways of going about them, and to say that I do not understand OOB design merely because I misread a couple of units in a reworked oob is both unfair and unwarranted. You may recall that you were happy enough to take on board my amendments to the Dutch oob in WW2 a few years back . . . . I've actually been at this almost as long as you - are you saying you never get caught out? We all do from time to time, it's called being human. But let's get this straight - not all of what you said was an explanation, some of it was a personal attack. Which, thanks to Suhiir, I shall ignore.

More to follow, but it will not be "advice", merely information.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

More mortars.

Class 153 – Light Mortar

Nigeria 64 is not within the time-frame of the country, not used by any of the ‘official’ scenarios, and is a 81mm weapon.

60mm Mortar – Sudan 586 has Weight 1, all others have 0.
Thailand 573 has RoF 9, others have 8.

2 60mm Mortars – NVA 68-71 have Speed 5, all others have 3. 1 extra for stealth, concealment etc maybe, but I wouldn’t have thought 2?
Denmark 92-94 have Crew 7, others have 6.
NVA 68-71, Greece 134-136, Turkey 115 and Brazil 529-531 have RoF 9, others have 8.
Argentina 565 & Brazil 529-531 have 45 Weapon 1 & 2 rounds, others have 60.

3 60mm Mortars – Ethiopia 85 has RoF 9, all others have 8.


Class 173 – Para Mortar Team

Belgium 527 is the only unit in-class with a Fire Control rating.

N.Korea 598 & 599, and Belgium 527, 542 & 543 are Size 0, all others are 1.

China 405 & 407 have Speed 3. Standard speed for a 107mm mortar (the nearest equivalent) is 1. Maybe 2 because they’re paras?

India 545 & 546 don’t actually possess a mortar.

Up to 60mm – N.Korea 598 & 599, and Switzerland 366 have Speed 3; Yugoslavia 293 has 4; France 344 & 381, Yugoslavia 289-292 and Croatia 293 have 5; all others (the vast majority) have 6.
French, N.Korean & Swiss units have RoF 8, all others have 9.
Belgium 542 & 543 have Crew 5, standard is either 3 or 4.
India 542-544 have Crew 10, but they appear to have a somewhat different function to standard para mortar teams.

81mm – Switzerland 367, Indonesia 571-573 and Rhodesia 98 have Speed 2; USA 516 and Italy 415-417 have 3; S.Africa 215-217 have 4; Portugal 217 & 218 have 5, and Ethiopia 438 & 457 have 6.
USA 516 and S.Africa 215-217 have a ‘man over’, ie Crews of 9.
S.African units have RoF 9; Ethiopian, Indonesian & Portuguese units have RoF 8, standard is 7.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 200 – Mortar Subtype A

Poland 206 (and 204 in the next class) appear to be the only mortars in existence with an AP round. I have no information on the M98, it just looks out of place, especially with nothing to improve its accuracy.

50-60mm – N.Korea 597, Canada 270-273 and Cambodia 596-598 have Size 0, all others have 1.
Canada 270-273 have 2 Crew, Nicaragua 510 has 4, Denmark 95-97 have 7, standard is 3. France 407 & 408 have 3 Crew for 2 mortars, standard is 6. However, the Canadian units also have only 30 Weapon 1 rounds (standard is 60), hence maybe the size and crew.
Israel 535 has Speed 6, for a 52mm, standard is 4.
China 99, 100, 102 & 103 have Speed 5 for a 60mm, standard is 3.
ARVN 520, Greece 340-342, Turkey 400, Brazil 558-560, Thailand 561 & Ethiopia 79 have RoF 9, all others have 8.
Brazil 558-560 have 45 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 60.

81/82mm – ARVN 524, Belgium 459, Czech 510-513 and Libya 235-238 have RoF 8, standard is 7.
USMC 272 & Argentina 505 have Size 0, others have 1.
Italy 800 has 4 Crew for 2 mortars, Jordan 574 & 575 have 6, Belgium 459 has 7, standard is 8. USMC 270 & 271 have Crew 8 for 1 mortar, standard is 4.
Nigeria 592, Kenya 412, Sudan 251 & 252 and Uruguay 460 have Speed 3, standard is 2. However, they also only carry 40 Weapon 1 rounds, so this may be a trade-off.
PLO 65 has Speed 1, China 101 has 3, but no trade-off.
Sudan 253, Bulgaria 474-477 and Somalia 64 have Weight 1, Sweden 424 has 3, standard is 0 (even for multiple mortars).
Brazil 561-563, Chile 580 & 581 and Sudan 253 have 35 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, Australia 309-312, NVA 188, Green 453 & Rhodesia 140 have 40, standard is 50. NB also applies to Weapon 2 for Australian units.

107mm – Uruguay 461 has Speed 0, Peru 587 has 2, all others have 1.
Ecuador 547 & Nicaragua 513 have Weight 0, all others have 1.
Libya 239 has RoF 7, all others have 6.
Uruguay 461 has 35 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, Chile 582 has 30, all others have 40.

120mm – Russia 563 & 566 have Crew 12, standard is 6. PLO 66 has Crew 8 for 2 mortars, standard is 12.
Egypt 512 & Russia 815 have Crew 5 and Weight 1, all others have 6/2. The Russian unit has a different weapon (2B18) which would account for the crew difference, but AFAIK it is considerably heavier than the M1943.
Russia 815 & NVA 189 have 30 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, all others have 40.

240mm – Syria 78 has 15 Weapon 1 (Mortar) rounds, standard is 20.


Class 201 – Mortar subtype B

Poland 204 – see previous class.

50-60mm – Lebanon 571 is Size 0, standard is 1.
Brazil 567-569 and Ethiopia 290 have RoF 9, standard is 8.
Brazil 567-569 have 45 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 60.

81/82mm – Argentina 616 is Size 0, standard is 1.
Jordan 577 & 578 and Lebanon 573 have Crew 3, standard is 4.
Finland 679-683 have Weight 1, standard is 0.
Belgium 558 & 560, Greece 344-346, Turkey 402 & 403, and Ethiopia 291 & 292 have RoF 8, standard is 7.

107mm – Belgium 559 & 561 and Ethiopia 293 have RoF 7, standard is 6.
Cyprus 295 has Speed 2, standard is 1.

120mm – Algeria 495 & 496 have Weight 1, Sudan 261 has 3, standard is 2.
Ethiopia 294 has RoF 6, standard is 5.
Sudan 259-262 have 30 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 40.

160mm – Egypt 80 has 20 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 24.

240mm – Egypt 81 has 15 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 20.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Class 202 – Mortar subtype C

81/82mm – Poland 188 & 189 have Speed 3, standard is 2.
Ethiopia 81 & 83 have RoF 8, standard is 7.
Australia 590-593 and Italy 418-420 have 40 Weapon 1 (mortar) rounds, standard is 50. NB also applies to Weapon 2 for Italian units.

107mm - Greece 348 & 349 and Turkey 405 & 406 have RoF 7, standard is 6.

120mm – Jordan 558 has Crew 4, USA 518 has 5, standard is 6.
Eritrea 73 has Speed 0, standard is 1.
USA 518 & Belgium 188 have Weight 1, standard is 2.
USA 518 and Turkey 408 & 409 have RoF 6, standard is 5.

160mm – N.Yemen 587 has Crew 6, standard is 8.


Class 255 – Mortar subtype D

60mm – Thailand 173 has RoF 9, standard is 8.

82mm Vasilek – Yugoslavia 597 has Speed 1, others have 0.
E.Germany 225 has 48 Weapon 1 HE rounds, others have 56. It also has 48 HEAT rounds, others have 4.

120mm – Poland 527-529 have Size 0, standard is 1. They also have Crew 4 (standard is 6), Speed 0 (standard is 1) and Weight 1 (standard is 2).
France 475 has Speed 2, France 476 has 0, standard is 1.
France 475 & 476 have 30 Weapon 1 and 2 (mortar) rounds, standard is 40.

Richard H

[Richard_H]

Machine Guns. I've made the assumption with this and (I hope) all other infantry units that the hand grenade loadout is by convention a multiple of the number of men in the unit. If I'm wrong, such information can be ignored.

Class 4 – MG Section

I’ve noticed that speeds for MMGs/GPMGs are either 5 (222 units) or 6 (40 units), probably according to the ideas of the individual oob designer. Taking nothing else into consideration, I have standardised on 5, if only because 6 is the standard infantry unit speed and I believe that there should be some penalty for the additional encumbrance. I may, however, have gone the wrong way, or this may be one of those cases where a standard speed isn’t necessary; in either case mea culpa.

Israel 465, Mujahadeen 96, Belgium 91 & 92, Denmark 298-302, E.Germany 79, Cyprus 206, Sweden 220-223, and Bulgaria 295-297 have Weight 1, all others have 0.

E.Germany 79 & 211, Romania 96, Red 149, Bosnia 47 & Croatia 47 have FC & RF 0, all others have 1/1.

NVA has reduced crew and size for HMG sections. Probably a country thing.

Denmark 298-302 have 7 crew for 2 MMG. Again, probably a country thing.

.30cal M1917 – Used by Austria 90 as a MMG.

.30cal M1919 – Libya 196 has Size 1 and Crew 8, others have 0/6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
USA 773 has Crew 10 for 3 guns, Japan 281 has 9. May be a country thing?
S.Korea 255 has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 6 Crew.

FN-MAG (& derivatives) – Libya 197 & Chile 91 have Size 1, others have 0. They also have Crew 8 for 2 guns (others have 6), and the Libyan unit has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Sweden 223 has Crew 8 for 2 guns.
UK 180 & 181, Gulf 91, Pakistan 298, Belgium 89 & 90, Netherlands 184 & 185, Greece 191 & 192, Chad 79, Saudi 91 & Uganda 76 have Speed 6, others have 5.

DShK – Egypt 90 & Syria 100 have Speed 3, others have 4.
N.Korea 422 & 424 have Crew 5, others have 4. They also have 5 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

M2/M2HB – ARVN 67 & Sweden 225 have Size 0 for a section, others have 1.
ARVN 67 has 6 Crew for 2 guns, others have 8. It also has 12 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Uruguay 131 & 132 and Paraguay 92 have 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

M60 – Mujahadeen 94 has Size 1, others have 0.
Gulf 92, S.Korea 251 & 256, Taiwan 251, Mujahadeen 94, ARVN 66, Saudi 92, Zimbabwe 43 & Uganda 75 have Speed 6, others have 5.

Maxim – E.Germany 211 has Size 0, others have 1. It also has Crew 3, others have 4, and 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Czech 350 has Crew 7 for 2 guns, others have 8. It also has 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Red 149 has Crew 3 and Speed 5, others have 4/4. It also has 3 Weapon 3 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Poland 350 has 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

MG42 (and derivatives) – Sweden 221 has 8 Crew for 2 guns, 222 has 10 crew for 3 guns. Others have 3 crew per gun.

MG3 – Pakistan 297, Greece 671, Turkey 372 & 373, W.Germany 264-266, Angola 75 & Sudan 93 have Speed 6. Standard for MMG is 5, although 6 is the majority here (qv note above).

NSV – Syria 101 has Speed 3, others have 4.
N.Korea 423 has Crew 5, others have 4. It also has 5 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

PKM/PKMS – Mujahadeen 93 & Libya 199 have Size 1, others have 0.
N.Korea 421 has Crew 4, others have 3. It also has 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Libya 199 has Crew 8 for 2 guns, others have 6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Egypt 88 & Syria 98 have Speed 4, Mujahadeen 93 has 6, others have 5.

SG-43 – Czech 351 & 352 have Size 1, others have 0. They also have Crew 7 (others have 6), and 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

SGM – Mujahadeen 92 & Libya 198 have Size 1, others have 0.
N.Korea 420 has Crew 4, others have 3. It also has 4 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Libya 198 has Crew 8 for 2 guns, others have 6. It also has 8 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Egypt 87, Syria 97, Chad 77 & Sudan 91 have Speed 4, others have 5.

Type 67 – Mujahadeen 95 has Speed 6, others have 5.
Zimbabwe 42 has 5 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds, for 6 Crew.

Type 77 HMG – China 299 has Speed 5, standard for a HMG is 4. While the Type 77 is much lighter than the Type 54, it’s still twice the weight of the Type 67 GPMG (http://world.guns.ru).

Type 92 HMG – Indonesia 90 has Speed 5, standard HMG speed is 4.

Vickers HMG – Libya 519 has Crew 8 for 1 gun, others have 4.
Gulf 90, Uruguay 130 & Paraguay 93 have 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds for 8 Crew.

Vz.37 – Israel 463, Romania 92 & Bulgaria 294 have Crew 6 for 2 guns, others have 8. They also have 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.
Romania 92 has Speed 4, others have 5.
Peru 574 is mis-named, there is only one.

zb.53 HMG – Chile 92 has 6 crew for 2 guns. Standard crew for HMG is 4. It also has 6 Weapon 4 (Hand Grenade) rounds.

Richard H

[Mobhack]

Yep - just because a line infantry element is ~4 men does not necessarily mean that it gets the size 0 bonus. That is usually reserved for scouts (ie those who don't want to shoot, as a rule). An "assault" team of 4-5 that is primarily there to jump off their Spartans and fight might not have it since they are not in the "stealth" business. (Forex, USSR units #346-348 should be size 1 as they are such, not recce).

But there will be variations to the design guidelines all over the place - since they are that, not laws. In the end it is up to the OOB designer to design his OOB, and for the points calculator to decide each element's worth.

So - OOB designer Bloggs may decide that in his Rastafarian OOB, a 2xgun SFMG section element(used in one formation) will have speed 5, and the singleton SFMG element used in inf coy HQ support platoon will have speed 6 to keep up with the grunts - maybe there are more men in the singleton, to carry the bits faster.

For most things, it is neither here nor there if the 81mm mortar crews (forex) have one or two variation in crew from the guideline, or whatever. All provided they fit in the supplied transports, of course !. A couple more men means they may survive longer if subject to C/B fire, and will cost a point or two more than in some other OOB.

OOB designers do not produce blow-by-blow design documents (Those were usual in SP1 days when there were only about, what?, 100 possible units in a national OOB - and some like the Romanians had less since they shared an OOB file with someone). We do have replies in deeply buried emails from folks who did their OOB their way, but it's difficult to keep track of. However, the old line by line essay that you got in SP1 days is long gone, since quite frankly it would be a complete PITA to keep in synch if (say) we published such a tome for each and every OOB.

We have been bitten several times back in the days when we had OOB design teams of volunteers, when some of these went through the OOB set "rationalising" things and "applying the rulez" in a rigid and formulaic mechanistic manner. (Like reducing the carry capacity of the M321X APC in the Rasta OOB to 11 because "that was what all the others are"- but the OOB designer had deliberately upped it to cater for the one 12 man squad available 1957-59 without having to jump through hoops with different formations).

Adjusting the carry of APCs is quite allowable, especially if it saves umpteen new formations and a rewritten pick list etc.

So - a run through like this is fine, as a pointer to things that look like they may need investigating. We will look at these reports, and decide whether or not the points are valid or not to need fixing. But please do not expect a blow-by-blow return replying to each and every line item, and whether or not we decided to fix it as suggested.

Cheers
Andy