Apache helicopter countermeasure

[Mobhack]

It may well be that the armour factor on flying thingies rejects too much damage. It may be code or it might be that OOB designers were too "enthusiastic" with the protection values assigned - SSI may have designed the game to only use 1 or 2 armour points and the larger numbers were not supposed to happen - I vaguely recall that things tended to be 1 or 2 maybe 3 in the old SSI oobs, armour-wise.

Some time this summmer I think I will look at the formula for air unit armour and how it actually works. Easier to tweak the formula than change hundreds of OOB units and then massage a zillion scenarios. (I vaguely recollect that its based on the weapon WH size vs armour value, been a few years since I last looked, mind).

It may be a simple thing like giving SAMs a chance on WH size or kill value perhaps, to ignore armour value on hitting or to "boost" the local WH size a bit inside the existing formula if it is a SAM hit.

Meanwhile - the best way I have found to kill armoured gunships in the game is to cath the little beasties in the hover and zap them with either a tank gun shot or an ATGM, That probably uses a different hit code than the Flak code. So the "problem" probably lies in the Flak routine (an HE hit) rather than in the hard target hit code (AP or HEAT etc).

Meanwhile - feel free to post your views up here and see if there is any consensus e.g. "SAM and Flak, too wimpy but AP shots are just fine on armoured aircraft".

[rel19]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Easier to tweak the formula than change hundreds of OOB units and then massage a zillion scenarios.

I am puzzled why you have not automated the editing of unit entries?
There is "Write CSV files" command in the OOB Editor. You could make united data base of all units in the game, process it with SQL scripts and after that map it into OOB files.

[Suhiir]

While I don't have access to the game code from in-game experience I find that armor 1 makes helos pretty resistant (but not immune) to small arms, 2 most MMGs, 3 VERY difficult to damage with MPADs and 20mmish AA, 4 essentially immune to MPADs and smaller AA because when you hit you generally get zero damage.

And that seems "correct", the Hind and Apache are designed and armored to be essentially immune to small caliber AA.

It may not be an "armor absorption" issue but rather one with how explosive damage is calculated/applied.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Good point, though the HIND and APACHE GUARDIAN (And note the distinction here.) are in a very exclusive club for helos, they not the only members. That being said overall, it's a very small club.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Because we discovered very early on it is way too easy for people to enter bad data in error that has cascade knock-off effects in the game so any write back code was removed but we don't use it and the " Why doesn't this work" question only pops up once in a while.

I have suggested it be put back in in the past and was given the same reminder.

I do more OOB work than anyone and I can live with it as it is.

We were burnt once and don't need a repeat

[rel19]

Originally Posted by DRG

Because we discovered very early on it is way too easy for people to enter bad data

You could use that "dangerous" tool by yourself not providing it to customers.
I got the understanding that you hate operation of OOB bases so automation is much more useful.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by rel19

You could use that "dangerous" tool by yourself not providing it to customers.
I got the understanding that you hate operation of OOB bases so automation is much more useful.

We deleted the import CSV file because it allows people to dump a lot of unveriviable data in the OOBs, as Don says we got bitten in the derriere by that in the past.

We have developed our own utility to extract mass data into a database to be able to run SQL queries and find stuff, compare things and so on.

Select U.NationID,N.NationName,U.name,U.slot,u.SteelHullf ront,u.steelhullside,u.steelhullrear,u.steelturret front,u.steelturretside,u.steelturretrear,u.steelt op
from Units U, NationNames N
where ( ( LOWER(U.name) like "%centurion%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%semel%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%olifant%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%sh'ot%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%pz%%55%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%pz%%57%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%81%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%101%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%102%") OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%strv%%104%")
OR (LOWER(U.name) like "%tariq%"))
AND U.nationID=n.nationID
order by u.steelhullfront

That one compares armour suites on centurions. (and of course is properly tabbed in the original, the forum quote tool buggers formatting).

Of course we do do mass changes to OOB data but not by the route of csv importing, which is wide open to abuse. I write little 'robot' programs in C++ which can be verified in order to update specific items. Those are checked, used, then the results checked.

There is thus no need to teach us how to suck eggs, we have been at this gig 20 odds years, now.

These tools are of course in-house things that won't be published externally.

But the end users will never be given the CSV import tool to abuse again because it caused so much damage to us before.

[DRG]

If I wanted to I would have years ago. It's a non issue the write back will not be brought back