What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[DRG]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

One of the big reasons Ukraine's offensive slowed down was because of the KA-52 Black Shark fleet; specifically the newer model -- Ka-52M which has the LMUR (ЛМУР -- Легкая многоцелевая управляемая ракета) Legkaya Mnogotselevaya Upravlyayemaya Raketa, lit. 'Light Multipurpose Guided Rocket'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMUR

The LMUR is a big boy -- 100 kg and a 25 kg warhead (versus Hellfire's 50 kg and 9 kg warhead); but what makes it so dangerous is that it's the first real "digital/datalinked" weapon the Russians have and it has an extremely long range of 14.5 km.

LMUR ?......... If that thing doesn't get code named ELMER I will be very surprised

[Suhiir]

And on the subject of drones/jammers/etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaWV...ist=WL&index=7
48:53

[DRG]

Something we need to identify as these weapons evolve is which would be or should be, classed as NLOS as opposed to just being a "normal" ATGM system or should there be one of each....a Mode 1 (Fire & Forget) and a Mode 2 (Post-Launch Targeting).

The issue is unit cost ( and weapon and unit slots ) two ATGM that are the same except one uses a multi charge ATGM weapns class so is a F&F/ Mode 1 unit and the other uses the designated NLOS weapons class--- the NLOS team will be roughly 100 points more expensive --but also more effective-- in the game when coupled with drone control

That said a NLOS unit can target as direct fire and NLOS so one NLOS unit would probably be simpler for everyone

[DRG]

There is info I can use for the game if anyone finds it..... so far I have struck out

1. How many Elmers can an KA-52 carry ?
   
2. If anyone finds a list of NLOS capable ATGM that includes Elmer post it, please.

Thanks

For now, temporary I figure since they weigh twice what the Vikir does it can carry half as many but that's just a WAG

[scorpio_rocks]

Looks like the Mi-28 carries 2 on each pylon in the places it is visible in the photos/vids here:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ile-in-ukraine

"The helicopter carries two LMUR missiles on a twin APU-L rail on the outer pylon under the right wing; the other pylon is empty. It’s not possible to see exactly what’s hanging under the left wing, except for an extra fuel tank. In another video, published a few days earlier by the Ugolok_Sitha channel, a Mi-28NM is seen carrying one LMUR missile under its right wing (on an APU-L twin rail), with a B8V-20 rocket launcher and an additional fuel tank under the left wing."

so 2 for every 6 or 8 Vikhr / Ataka

[DRG]

OK. 4 works for me

EDIT

The caption for this is "The APU-L double rail for LMUR missiles."

[DRG]

It's difficult to outrun a drone in the open

https://youtu.be/voshtfn9PRM

[MarkSheppard]

Excerpts from a Twitter thread on the life of a "mobile" drone operator

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/stat...97077518151973

A DAY AT THE FRONT - The 28th mechanized

We spent a day with the 28th mechanized brigade, operating in eastern Ukraine. In this thread we give an honest insight of what we saw and what the current situation is at the front.

A story with
@guillaume_ptak
and
@PDocumentarians

...

We woke up at 3:30am and met the press-officer of the 28th Mechanized Brigade in Kramatorsk. We had to move under the cover of darkness so as to avoid being targeted by the Russian FPV drones now plaguing Ukrainian defenders on the frontline....

...

According to the officer, FPV drones are responsible for the vast majority of casualties now sustained by Ukrainian soldiers in eastern Ukraine. After meeting the drone operators, we jumped in the back of their flat-bed truck and set out towards the cold and snowy frontline....

...


After finally getting the drone to work, they flew it out towards the frontline but quickly lost its signal. The onset of winter has proven an obstacle for drones operators, as batteries discharge faster in the cold and the humidity interferes with the signal....


....

Andrii apologized to us, and explained that their work for the day was over. However, they would have to stay at the position until evening, making their way back under the cover of darkness. Artillery shells kept landing in the distance, on Russian positions....

Seems drones on both sides have forced everyone to a semi-nocturnal lifestyle -- i.e. personnel & equipment resupply has to operate under conditions of darkness or very bad weather, lest ubiquitous FPS drones strike.

...

Returning to Lasers:

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/sta...87727758627172

While power levels are not the only consideration, early DOD evaluations with first and second gen. solid state HEL's has led to the following:

🔸5-15kW: Group 1 & 2 [UAV] defeat
🔸20kW: G 1, 2 & 3 [UAV] defeat
🔸50-60kW: G 1,2 & 3 [UAVs] + RAM [Rockets & Mortars] & some CM [Cruise Missiles]
🔸100-300kW: Long-Range Rockets & Cruise Missiles

Back to drones...

We finally know what "Baba Yaga" is -- the mysterious Ukrainian Drone that Russians have been calling that.

https://twitter.com/PStyle0ne1/statu...98616020283439

Essentially, the AFU have been using a large, heavy drone as a "mothership" -- most Drones only have a range of 5 to 8 km, limited by both batteries and line of sight propagation of radio for control signals.

The Baba Yaga drone acts as a mothership, carrying smaller drones deep into the battlefield, before releasing them and then acting as a mobile radio relay at an altitude of 1000m for the released drones. This lets AFU strike 20 to 30 km into the rear with drones that normally could only strike 5 to 8 km.

[MarkSheppard]

I'm basically turning this thread into a dumping place for "new tactics, new technologies"; rather than a raw OOB thread, because there's a lot of changes going on now.

Konrad Muzyka visited Southern Ukraine with Kofman, [Rob] Lee, and Gady -- it was detailed in this paywalled article:

https://rochanconsulting.substack.co...or-impressions

But some people cut and pasted it. The things of most interest to this thread:

The war is also very drone-centric. There could be 20 drones flying near the frontline along the 10 km wide front. Neither side has the ability to achieve a tactical surprise unless an attack is launched in drone adverse weather (rain with very heavy winds); Readiness to respond to ground attacks is very high. We saw Russian troops (a platoon) walking towards the frontline. Once they were detected, they were engaged by mortars within 30 seconds and by artillery cluster munitions after an additional four minutes. Both sides have capabilities to ISR opposing forces' tactical depths;

(emphasis mine).

The "detect to destroy" cycle is very short now.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

The Baba Yaga drone acts as a mothership, carrying smaller drones deep into the battlefield, before releasing them and then acting as a mobile radio relay at an altitude of 1000m for the released drones. This lets AFU strike 20 to 30 km into the rear with drones that normally could only strike 5 to 8 km.

Sounds like "No Mans Land" has been extended exponentially, making the front to big for conventional weapons, making Weapons of Mass Destruction a viable choice again. Sounds deadly, for both soldiers and civilians alike. It's like WWI all over again, but with high technology. Looks like SPWWIII is becoming more viable all the time. I don't know how practical a new title would be though. I say just extend the game beyond 2025, a simple solution for a complicated situation, at least until we figure out a better way to do it.