Smoke candles

[chuckfourth]

Heres an interesting quote from
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=43178

The entire article is well worth a read.

"The Pz.IV Ausf.A/B/C/D and the StuG III Ausf.A in France in 1940 could fire a smoke shell with the 7.5cm L/24. The German tanks were not equipped with smoke dischargers prior to 1941. The use of smoke dischargers was more generalized in the following battles in Russia and North Africa. They were mounted on the rear portions of the mudguards, facing forwards, or on the sides of the turret. For instance, on a Pz38(t), they would mount a 1/2 cylindrical shaped cylinder propped up by a piece of steel that would contain 3 smoke projectiles per side.
Nevertheless, beside the smoke shells fired by the artillery or by the Pz.IV or StuG III, the Germans modified several tanks by mounting a kind of smoke dispenser on the rear of the tank. It was a rack with German infantry smoke candles ("Nebelkerzen"). These candles just "burned" and made smoke on the rear of the tank instead of real smoke dischargers making a smoke screen in front of the tank. It is not sure that there was a triggering system from inside the tank. This system was already used in Poland in 1939."

Points I found interesting,
38t had smoke candles doesnt have any in-game.
I think in my travels Ive seen pictures of pz 2 with the smoke candles mounted on the mudgards firing forward not quite sure about it though Ill check.
AS I read it smoke candles enter service in 41. prior to this date the vehicles in question used the 'Nebelkerzen'

I can't imagine that they didnt have a triggering system from inside, stopping the tank and jumping out to light them seems impracticle.

203 "PzKw III Tauch" is pz 3 auf e so may have had them if they could survive a dunking

Not sure about the 222 some had the Nebelkerzen some didnt, as one can find a picture of pretty much any vehicle that has smoke candles without them fitted, maybe the 222 should get candles also.

My apologies in the origional post the picture of the pz 3 with armoured Nebelkerzen is the 5th picture down not the 3rd.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

the Germans modified several tanks by mounting a kind of smoke dispenser on the rear of the tank.

"Several" tanks ??

Do you seriously think we should add a smoke dispenser to some of these models becasue the Germans modified "several" of them?

I will consider the 1941 date for actual smoke dischargers

Don

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
I would read it as several tank "types" but it may indeed be just a few tanks. Having read the rest of the post it seems to me the posters first language isnt English.

[chuckfourth]

Well there does seem to be some confusion here, firstly as for rarity all the pz 3 from auf f had 5 of these these "smoke bombs" fitted as standard. the minimum introduction date for the smoke bomb thus becomes 07/40, according to the game, but these sites
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...iii-ausf-f.asp
"-auf f- Were issued to the Panzer divisions starting in late 1939"
and
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iii.htm
""In September of 1939, another new variant - Ausf F (5-serie) entered production""
Seems the current in-game introduction date for unit 583 pz 3 auf f is about a year too late. 07/40 is the date that they began upgunning auf f to 50mm

that aside,

Auchtung panzer also has this to say regarding pz 3 auf f and smoke bombs.
"Ausf F vehicles were fitted with a hull rear mounted rack of five smoke generators remotely released from the turret"
note the use of the word release rather than fire or ignite. ie they are dropped on the ground.
comparing the employment of these smoke bombs to a diesel-injection smoke system thus becomes a nonsense. The injection system stays with the tank whereas the smoke candles/bombs are dropped on the ground allowing the tank to then reverse behind it. Or it can just turn away and drop them as it turns which probably gets the smoke between it and the AT gun even quicker.
esp as pz 3 can spin the tracks in opposite directions. ie turn on a dime.

OK then, the tank drops the smoke can and reverses over it to get out of sight.
Currently the game models the smoke bomb dropper the same as the smoke bomb discharger whats the downside not much, How long would that take to get behind the smoke, 10 seconds maybe 20 how long are the turns 3 minutes or more? Just pretend the game turn time to 3 minutes and 10 seconds. The game certainly has some other similar compromises. For example a landing craft can move its full movement points then the discharged vehicle can also moves its full movement points thats a 3 minute turn stretched into a 6 minute turn.

If the early panzer III's have their smoke bombs removed/ignored then AT guns can keep shooting at them for turn after turn, thats as many shots as they have ammunition. Whereas in reality they would get off only one or two shots before the tank would have reversed out of sight behind the smoke.
ie The pz 3 has to stand up to possibly hundreds of AT rounds when in reality it should only have to face up to one or two.
On the other hand,
Model the smoke bomb dropper the same as the smoke bomb discharger (as is currently the case in-game) and the AT gun will get only one shot at the pz3 rather than the -maybe- 2 it would have in reality.
ie the AT gun is only slightly disadvantaged, or not disadvantaged at all, depending on how long it takes a pz 3 to get behind its dropped smoke compared to the guns Rate of fire.

My Question is this, which is closer to reality?

Best Regards Chuck

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

How long would that take to get behind the smoke, 10 seconds maybe 20 how long are the turns 3 minutes or more?

Forgetting the time needed to spot danger and to react. And, if the tank is moving, to stop it and go to reverse or "dime turn" - try doing that at full speed and you'd throw the track. I suspect first crew reaction would not be dropping smoke but trying to suppress the AT gun or "sprint" to cover. Kinda like that famous Polish "cavalry charge against tanks" - it was not a charge, but a retreat, the Poles knew well that they have to get ASAP into forest and shortest route went through the Panzers. They knew if they tried to turn back (away from the tanks) they'd get slaughtered doing so as they'd have to slow and begin turning in full view of the enemy.
Same applies for tanks, turning on dime is nice but it still shows nicely thin side armour (in fact with later PzIII's the thinnest place).
As for the smoke itself, would be pretty limited and might even be more detrimental to the tank than to the enemy, after all the ATG crew may fire blindly through, if they're quick enough the tank is still somewhere there and the ATG position is fixed, whereas tank crew loses any clue on enemy position the moment it backs into the smoke.
By the way, try not to exaggerate, I have yet to see a tank in SP having to withstand "hundreds" of AT gun rounds. That is if you do not leave Tiger sitting with disabled weapons in front of company of 37mm popguns. If your tanks have to suffer hundreds of rounds fired at them, there is some serious flaw in your setup and no amount of smoke dischargers will mend it