[German] What do you do with your 50mms ?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Cross

Hi John,

Yes I've heard some of the disdain for the 2 inch. I recall Andy saying that he had a trainer who suggested something like, 'its only use may be to club the enemy'.

However, when it was in trained or skillful hands, I've also heard it could very effective. I heard a claim that it could be accurate to 6 feet at 500 yards! This sounds exagerated, but perhaps its possible - with observed fire - to get pretty close after you've fired a couple of shots to adjust your aim.

The 2 inch could also be fired directly, supposedly, like a grenade launcher.

Here's an interesting excerpt:




cheers,
Cross

Originally Posted by DRG

The squad integrated versions don't have smoke becasue there is no way to assign smoke rounds to a "mortar" in that case but the regular version of the 2in mortar certainly do have smoke rounds. 7 - 9 of them in most cases which averages to 66% of their total ammo load


Don

smoke is not "ammo" in the game - there is no way to mobhack it. It is an attribute that is added to an element by the code, for weapon slot 1, and not the weapon.

The problem with the 2 inch was that it took up 2 men (if the platoon assigned the appropriate crew), for a marginally useful device. The main problem was humping the ammunition (and HE was only rarely issued, it was meant for smoke and illuminating). A dozen or so rounds between the 2 guys would be about all that could reasonably be carried. Sights were just a white line painted on the tube, so anyone skilful with the thing did it through a lot of firing practice!

Those 2 men could be used for more useful tasks in the rifle platoons, which were always short of manpower. Sometimes then the platoon sergeant humped it and a very few rounds in his backpack instead.

The PIAT or later the 84mm MAW however, were seen as useful and justifying the manpower assigned to the beasties and their weight, and that of their ammunition.

However, by 1975 our 2 inchers sat and festered in the armoury and were only brought out for the annual recruit training course where a few rounds of smoke and illum were fired to demonstrate it to the newbies. (We had the Shermuly single-shot flare that could be assigned to any grunt by then, and decent smoke grenades ditto.)

Apparently though the new 51mm has had a good response - as it had sights (a simple bubble level) and a useful range - 750 metres or so, plus HE was regularly issued (And that had a pre-fragmented case). And it seems the new 60mm commando mortar is popular as well.

The 2 inch in UK platoon HQs was really only added for those players that think it was some sort of "super duper giant grenade launcher". It was not - it was a smoke and flare thrower that many units simply left in the rear line transport and only brought forwards for the formal assaults. HE ammo for it was like hen's teeth.

Cheers
Andy

[Cross]

Originally Posted by DRG

The squad integrated versions don't have smoke becasue there is no way to assign smoke rounds to a "mortar" in that case but the regular version of the 2in mortar certainly do have smoke rounds. 7 - 9 of them in most cases which averages to 66% of their total ammo load

Don,

Thank you very much for this info. I was not aware I could buy the 2 inch mortar as a seperate unit. I vaguely recall seeing it in the past, but I think I dismissed it, assuming it would have no smoke ammo.

The details you guys have been able to work into this game continues to astound me...

I just searched and found it among the MISC units. I can see where perhaps it doesn't really fit the 'Artillery' category, but perhaps it could be in 'Infantry'. But this is a tough one...

Anyway, I can definately see where this light mortar team could be real useful in the right situation, and will be sure to use it in the near future.

cheers,
Cross

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by Cross

SPWW2 has given these weapons their historical ranges.
The German 5cm and Brit 2 inch both had a range of about 500M, the US 60mm about 2000M, and the Jap 5cm 650M; and that's what they each have in the game.

As for 'qualities', the German 5cm (and the Jap 50mm) have been given an accuracy of '5', compared to '3' for the US and UK. This is a bit odd, because the Axis mortars had far shorter barrels than the Brit and US versions.

The German mortar did have lots of impressive - but probably unnecessary - dials for adjusting aim. Giving it a hefty weight of about 30lbs, compared to 10lbs for the Brit and Jap mortars.

The German 5cm also gets twice the ammo of the British. So I don't think the German are 'short changed' in the light mortar department.

None of the mortars (except the hybrid - half light, half med. US mortar) gets any penetration value. Making them even less effective than grenades, which is again a bit odd, as these mortars fired rounds weighing:

Brit: 2.25lb
Ger: 2lb
US: 3lb
Jap: 2lb

I wish these mortars got smoke rounds; which was one of the 2 inchers common functions. Does the US 60mm get smoke? But there may be a game/code reason why not.

I mostly use them in the direct fire role. They can be used with supressive 'Z' fire, but with only 12 rounds (UK) this seems like a waste of ammo.


cheers,
Cross

German 50mm's have more accuracy, but they have shorter range. What that "can" amount to, is that once a longer ranged, less accurate piece is brought down to actually being used at the shorter range, it may be just as accurate or better, because it's lesser accuracy is based on a higher number to begin with. I don't know if the number it is based on is the medium range for all weapons or not, but I doubt it's based on the longest range, which is probably considerably less accurate than the accuracy stated. For example, a tank gun with a range of 60, with an accuracy of 10, would be more accurate at range 20, than a gun with a top range of 20, but a stated accuracy of 12.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Charles22

German 50mm's have more accuracy, but they have shorter range.

What that "can" amount to, is that once a longer ranged, less accurate piece is brought down to actually being used at the shorter range, it may be just as accurate or better, because it's lesser accuracy is based on a higher number to begin with. I don't know if the number it is based on is the medium range for all weapons or not, but I doubt it's based on the longest range, which is probably considerably less accurate than the accuracy stated.
For example, a tank gun with a range of 60, with an accuracy of 10, would be more accurate at range 20, than a gun with a top range of 20, but a stated accuracy of 12.

The German 5cm has the same range as the British 2 inch, 500M.

Ger 5cm.....500m....Acc 5
Brit 2in.......500m....Acc 3
Jap 50mm...650m....Acc 5
US 60mm...2000m..Acc 3
Rus 50mm..800m....Acc 3

As you can see, the Axis mortars are more accurate.

If it's as you say - and the mortar accuracy is relevant to say half range - then at 250m the German mortar would have an acc of 5, the Brit mortar an acc of 3, and the Rus mortar an acc of about 2



cheers,
Cross

[Imp]

Probably about the only mortars where accuracy has any relevance as you do end up direct firing the shorter ranged ones.

[runequester]

Originally Posted by Imp

Probably about the only mortars where accuracy has any relevance as you do end up direct firing the shorter ranged ones.

and by then, its usually dire straits anyways

The 50mm crews tend to do more harm with their small arms than with the mortar, though it can scare off an armoured car and blow up the occasional truck

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Cross

Ger 5cm.....500m....Acc 5
Brit 2in.......500m....Acc 3
Jap 50mm...650m....Acc 5
US 60mm...2000m..Acc 3
Rus 50mm..800m....Acc 3

As you can see, the Axis mortars are more accurate.

If it's as you say - and the mortar accuracy is relevant to say half range - then at 250m the German mortar would have an acc of 5, the Brit mortar an acc of 3, and the Rus mortar an acc of about 2

Oops, I meant:

and the Rus mortar an acc of about 4




.

[Charles22]

Originally Posted by Cross

The German 5cm has the same range as the British 2 inch, 500M.

Ger 5cm.....500m....Acc 5
Brit 2in.......500m....Acc 3
Jap 50mm...650m....Acc 5
US 60mm...2000m..Acc 3
Rus 50mm..800m....Acc 3

As you can see, the Axis mortars are more accurate.

If it's as you say - and the mortar accuracy is relevant to say half range - then at 250m the German mortar would have an acc of 5, the Brit mortar an acc of 3, and the Rus mortar an acc of about 2



cheers,
Cross

Nah, I think you got your numbers mixed up. Half-range would change for whatever your full range is. Obviously, the USA one would have the greatest accuracy across the board, since the range is so vast. It's 4X the range of the german one, but with only 60% of the german 'stated' accuracy. So if accuracy were stated at maximum range, but used at the german maximum range (500m) then the US accuracy at that range would be 12 (3X4). If it would be at half-range, then USA would be 6 (3X2), while german would be like maybe 2.5 if it were half-range.

I'm only guessing of course, but you can see where accuracy without serious range, can be outshone by comparative lack of accuracy with great range. When considering that, the USA ones are by far the best in accuracy. The only way that the USA holds the seeming lack of accuracy, is if all accuracy were based on a solid range, such as 10 hexes or 20 hexes for each and every unit. I don't think it was done that way. Now who's going to shoot me down?

[chuckfourth]

Hi
I think it would be reasonable and authentic to give the Jap knee mortar British 2 inch and German 50cm mortars an indirect fire bombardment delay of 0 as they have no bipod and so go into action virtually instantaneously. (The german mortar has a quick release on the elevation mechanism allowing it to be aimed quickly manually.)
The ideal employment for these weapons is the cover dead ground around a coy point defensive position. As mentioned in the origional post the delay of 3 precludes them doing this effectively in-game.
The Brixia may also qualify for a lessened delay (perhaps 1) owing to the short ranges involved (The elevating dial seems not to have a quick release mechanism.)
I believe the germans ditched the 50 as it was inaccurate and expensive.
From lone sentry for the 50
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DG
and the brixia
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Best regards Chuck.

[Cross]

ps. The 2 inch team is 3 men. Any chance of lowering this to a more realistic 2 man team?

cheers,
Cross