Mod Conceptual Balance Mod 1.6 - Page 19

Maerlande · #1 November 15th, 2009, 01:17 PM

QM,

We were discussing LA Ulm strategies on IRC and I noticed what I think is a balance issue.

Black Templars are useful troops for LA Ulm especially with a rainbow light bless which also suits LA Ulm as a viable build. However, I think they are badly overpriced. The comparisons I made are Midgard Vans and TC Ancestor Vessels.

Vans at 90/16 are 10 gold more and 29 resources less. I think the gold price for vans is suitable and resources are based on equipment if I understand correctly so that suits.

Ancestor vessels at 60/31 are 20 gold cheaper and 14 resources cheaper.

Black templars at 80/45 gain a lot of protection but have generally inferior stats to the above and have no special abilities besides sacred. The resource price is for gear so makes sense but the gold price seems at least 20 too high if not 30 too high. My understanding is that protection should not be included in gold price because it's in the resource price. Also, they have terrible MR which is potentially an issue in some situations.

Clearly a build to use Black Templars must account for production and that's fair. But burning that much gold on a decent but not special sacred cavalry unit is painful. You could buy 8 infantry for that.

That's my opinion anyways. I'm not sure LA Ulm needs help in late game, but it does have a bit of a fragile expansion depending on the strategy. And also the consensus on IRC is that LA Ulm is rush bait because their late game is so good. Black templars are one of the best equilizers for stopping a rush. And I don't think they have much late game value so it's really only a boost to Ulm's expansion and early game.

Cheers,
Maer

Micah · #2 November 15th, 2009, 04:30 PM

"And I don't think they have much late game value so it's really only a boost to Ulm's expansion and early game."

Stronger early game translates directly into stronger late game...

Maerlande · #3 November 15th, 2009, 07:34 PM

Fair enough

Illuminated One · #4 November 15th, 2009, 08:03 PM

That's actually one thing I have to disagree with.

Firstly, it's limiting strategies to "expand fast" (with a chance to outresearch and use research advantage in some situations).

Secondly I really don't see where Ulm can squeeze out a bless for templars.
You need d3b2-3 on your god and you need him at least dormant if you want to get into the vampires quickly, you want high dom, s4 is necessary for RoW, nature isn't.

Giving the vampires back their earlier lower cost might be better imo. They are (leaving the immortality out) weaker than the recruitable mages of many nations (Scratti and Mictlan Rain Priests for instance).

Maerlande · #5 November 15th, 2009, 08:16 PM

I think that's a bit of taste involved. I've been playing them with a nice rainbow bless on the light side with sleeping master lich and some 4's while keeping decent scales. Obviously it includes D4 and B4 and other variations. There are a lot of options which play a bit different.

But, the point was that they compare unfavourably to other LA sacred cavalry. Not an analysis of playing style or build although I agree I brought that into the discussion myself.

Speaking of limiting strategies, assuming that Ulm can't use a bless strat is limiting. It's possible. It may not be effective. I think it works well with 4's and synergizes with the need to diversify magic.

Illuminated One · #6 November 15th, 2009, 08:23 PM

Well, I'm not talking about limited in one nation (of course a nation must be limited or it's simply overpowered, see Hinnom, Sauromatia).
I mean that balancing nations should not be done by just giving them better sacreds imo.

Squirrelloid · #7 November 16th, 2009, 12:23 AM

Having just played LA Ulm recently, i'm not convinced the templars are unplayable. But they probably are overpriced for their stats, at least slightly. Their real problem is their bad MR - i had them dying like flies to smite spam, which for an 80 gold unit is not cool, especially when they're otherwise the only unit Ulm has that can stand against a lot of the LA bless rushes. I'd probably advise an MR boost before a drop in the gold cost.

I do think the rainbow Ulm bless is perfectly playable and fulfills a lot of Ulm's needs.

Squirrelloid · #8 November 16th, 2009, 01:20 PM

The problem Ulm has against sacred rushes is they're likely to be accompanied by a smite spamming priest (the prophet, if nothing else).

At which point Ulm has the choice of the Templars, who might actually be able to fight the sacreds but will die horribly to smite spam, and in their rather limited numbers can't really survive that. Or they can choose regular units (none of which they can mass especially fast, but faster than templars), who will have the numbers to withstand some smite losses, but won't survive the sacreds. And it really is a one or the other choice, because even with Pr3 Ulm will always find itself resource limited.

Trumanator · #9 November 16th, 2009, 03:19 PM

Ummm, they're talking about the cavalry, not the guardians Chris. LA Ulm is the one in question here.

Maerlande · #10 November 16th, 2009, 03:44 PM

I see quite a bit of Chris's analysis that points to the templar discussion. We've been hashing out ideas on the ghouls in IRC today.

I guess to put it simply, I'd like the templars to cost less gold to fit with the competition for sacred cavalry. I strongly agree that the low MR is thematic and fits. If the templars cost less gold it would provide another strategic option, neither the best nor worst, just another one.