OT: Let’s all take a deep breath

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Sensori

Brutal executions also have a downside to them. Making people martyrs. Also, they work well to make the people angrier and more rebellious than they would otherwise been!

The same with kings constantly stepping in and doing the work of their minions.

OffT, I still wanted to say this:
About the Communions thread. It was made clear on page 1 that it was an ironic thread. You cannot get more clearer than: "You guys missed the irony and thought this was a serious post.
... [drivel removed] ... you might want to check out other threads about user Sombre."

And if the mods want people to "make their own conclusions", please just post the PM's made between Sombre and the mods. It would clear up a lot. Probably prove that the Sombre camp isn't totally on the side of right. (As I still think that Sombre's pms where not all butterflies and sunshine, and if it was. Just saying "oops, we overreacted" is possible. People make mistakes).

But currently all that is being done is showing only one point of the argument. The (arguably bad for the Sombre camp) communions thread is revived. But the whole PM and "we have been watching him for some time" stuff is not. Bit Hypocritical. Either do nothing about the whole problem, and don't release any more details (as promised by Annette at first). Or provide transparency in this issue.

[Tim Brooks]

Having been a bystander through most of this and owner of these forums, here is my take.

I’m personally saddened by the ban and consequent bans

Having talked to everyone involved I can assure you that Shrapnel Games, the admins and the moderators feel the same way.

They are free spirits and not shy about expressing their opinion, if at times bluntly.

Agreed, but bluntness is so easily misinterpreted. In the process of expressing their opinions with bluntness they ran people (mainly new members, but also some regulars) off of these forums. This is not the way Shrapnel Games wants these forums to operate. And the escalating bluntness was where we drew the line.

although they’ll likely always push the limits, they are overall positive and an important part of this community, we don’t want to lose them.

Pushing the limits - that is what we are no longer willing to tolerate. And yes, they were important to the community. And still are. They are free to continue to make mods, find a community that is willing to put up with their behavior, and support Dominions.

We said originally that we would consider having them back, but that they must follow the rules. This is the disconnect to me. Sombre was banned because he was given this choice. The moderators asked him to follow the rules and play nice. His reponse was I will continue in the way I always have and ignore your requests asking me to change my behavior.

And as far as Shrapnel's side, who knows what to believe? We've just been given some rumor and innuendo of a past pattern of bad behavior.

You know. The admins and moderators just yesterday had a discussion about this. Should we have an open door policy when it comes to forum discipline? I am still of the opinion that what people say in PMs should remain private unless they give their consent. And I still believe that contacting people by PM and asking them to follow the rules is a better choice than making every instance of this public.

But since Shrapnel is unable or unwilling to share documentation, who's to know the 'truth'? Unless and until Shrapnel shares those records, there are always going to be some people who doubt their sincerity. If they can't share that information, they better get used to some people being left with a bad taste in their mouth over the issue that started this whole imbroglio.

And once the documentation is shared, there will still be two sides, as we have seem through this whole fiasco. Is it not true that whatever we shared would be open to interpretation? I think so. The ban to Sombre came because we interpreted what he said. In the last eleven years, this isn't the first time something like this has happened. We went into the ban on Sombre totally knowing that 'people would be left with a bad taste in their mouth'.

Three more people got banned, and several others have expressed their intention to pack their bags and leave for good. Was it really necessary to let it come to that?

It is sad that it came to that. But predictable.

Where are these temporary bans I've heard of?

This seems to be a sticking point for alot of people. The three banned after Sombre, well they wanted to be banned and were. Temp bans only work with people who are willing to change. Sombre indicated he wouldn't change (yes, that is how we interpreted what he said). Why temp ban someone who told you he would ignore your descipline measures? To make the community feel better? See I don't believe it would have made the community any happier. After we got to the permanent ban, we would be right back here doing this anyway.

In my opinion, the way this whole situation has been handled has made Shrapnel seem very unprofessional.

Does anything along these lines ever make a company look professional? My guess is no. But you know what? Do you really think we would be any more professional if we posted details about a users behavior that would potentially reflect negatively on him after he's been banned and not allowed to make posts in his own defense? That allowing people to run off other forum members, allowing name calling and the use of profane language, etc. is going to make us look more professional.

The bottom line. We did what we did not out of anger. Not because we disliked people. And definitly not to make people angry. We took action because we felt we had to. Every day Shrapnel Games makes decisions. Usually they are right, but sometimes they are wrong. But you know, you go into it with your eyes wide open and you live with the consequences.

Thanks for listening.

[Rookierookie]

The posts that had FL, Trum and Maer banned were of the nature "Ban me you moth(censored) I dare u b(censored)" repeated several times. They were deleted or edited afterwards.

I don't think we should all be tolerant of juvenile or rash behaviour, especially if they cause collateral damage. Killing someone in the heat of the moment may not be murder, that doesn't mean that it's not a crime.

[Humakty]

'But....But... I'd have to prove them guilty first ? How unpractical...'

Henri the eigth, about his wives.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im not exactly sure of the numbers here.
I highly expect that no one is going to enter these threads jumping up and down doing the happy dance over someone being banned. In fact, I dont remember that ever happening with any ban. On the other hand, I wouldnt necessarily chalk up the lack of comment by most of the forum to mean they are unhappy with what happened. If anything, I think it might be more reasonable to consider the silent majority to be silent for a reason.

We arent going to know how often or what level of complaints Shrapnel gets about someone. We arent going to know why they do things. This is not unusual here. Its not unusual on any corporate server.

If you want a way to move on, then just accept that Shrapnel has an idea of what type of forums they want. And they have that right. Its their forums, on their machines, being offered for free. You have a right to disagree (someplace else), or you can join the ones in question who appear to have voluntarily called down punishments on themselves.

Over the last year Ive been tempted to give up and I have often considered just creating my own forum on Dom3Minions. But we all know how that goes. I talk about it, Sombre comments on my talking about it, then Sombre actually does it. And.... here we are again. Sombre actually did what I just thought about. I wish both the old forum (here) and the new forum (there) well in their endeavors.

Hopefully this doesnt violate my NAP with Shrapnel

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

If you want a way to move on, then just accept that Shrapnel has an idea of what type of forums they want. And they have that right. Its their forums, on their machines, being offered for free. You have a right to disagree (someplace else), or you can join the ones in question who appear to have voluntarily called down punishments on themselves.

Sure, it's Shrapnel's forum, and they can do what they want. But they should try to hold themselves to a higher standard. And it would be in their own self interest to do so, as it would look more professional.

Me, I'm just some guy. On the internet, you might expect a modicum of decency out of me. But maybe, as some guy, I'm a joker, or I get easily offended, or I think I know a lot. Some guys can often be irritating. But again, I think moderators for a business web site should not be acting like some guy. And because they have power, they should be extra careful about acting like just some guy. Because they're not - they have power, and they represent an institution. They should be better than that.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

Hopefully this doesnt violate my NAP with Shrapnel

Que? Care to explain?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

Que? Care to explain?

Just putting it in Dom terms. Anyone who has been slapped here basically ends up with a Non-Aggression Pact of some sort. Its fairly common as part of the process here to get a small lecture where you promise not to do it again, or not to bait/troll that person again, or not to incite mutiny/riots again. Ive just always jokingly referred to mine as a NAP like we have in the game. (altho referring to the NAP is in itself kindof a slight violation of the NAP)

We dont know of course since Shrapnel does not make such things public. But I think its fairly obvious that some of the people we are talking about had ups and downs in their attitudes here which made me highly suspect that they also were operating under a NAP with Shrapnel and so I purposely tried to avoid making it any harder on them.

@TwoBits
I disagree. I disagree that they should because I disagree that they did not do it in the first place. Nor that there would be any huge benefit in it. I recognize your opinions in the matter but I wouldnt necessarily say they should be stated as facts as though the entire forum would see it that way. If this bothers you alot I will point to the title beneath my avatar. I disagree with that also but it has helped in the past with discussions like this to note who has what titles.

[Psycho]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

On the other hand, I wouldnt necessarily chalk up the lack of comment by most of the forum to mean they are unhappy with what happened. If anything, I think it might be more reasonable to consider the silent majority to be silent for a reason.

I just wanted to comment on this. I didn't say anything so far, since I didn't have any wise words that were not already said. But, the fact is that I am very dissatisfied by the whole situation and I can't imagine anyone not being.

Basically, the mods should have handled the situation much better. Things that llama and Festin wrote - these conclusions come naturally to me and I am surprised that mods think otherwise.

Originally Posted by Festin

It would make you look more professional, if instead of suddenly (at least from everyone else's point of view) banning people for obscure reasons, you gave a temporary ban and a public warning that such behaviour will not be tolerated, and then, if your warning was ignored, gave a permanent ban. It is as simple as that.

Originally Posted by llamabeast

In my opinion, clearly yes. I'm very surprised not everyone thinks the same thing. The public reaction has been the damaging thing, and I can't imagine anything like the same public reaction to a temporary ban. If multiple temporary bans led eventually to a permanent ban, there would be no outcry because it would have been obvious that it was coming.

[Tim Brooks]

That is my point...they didn't have any real power to do anything but ask for the 'Big Guns'. And usually when that second Cop shows up when you are stopped...someone goes to jail.

GrudgeBringer:

This is not true. The mods can and do have the power to ban anyone they think needs banning. We trust their decisions. In fact they have exercised this right in the last couple of days. How it came about that Annette actually did the banning of Sombre I am not sure. I am under the impression that the Mods available at the time were in total agreement with this.

Let me just say that I am glad it was Annette who did the banning, as she has been called everything from a liar to a prissy self important offendable drama queen. I am glad our volunteer mods didn't have to take the abuse.

On a side note: Are you ex-Military?

Regards,